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Old 12-20-2011, 08:59 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Dear Katie, Romans 5:12 does not say "spiritual death" passed through into all mankind. It just says "death." The Bible never mentions "spiritual death." Adam did not die a spiritual death the day he sinned. It was a physical DYing process: "to die shall you be dying" God told him. And God showed Adam what that process meant when Adam was told he will have to work till he return to the soil.

It is that same dying that was passed through into all mankind.

Due to death operating in all mankind, all sin. That's Paul's point.
Because the penalty of sin is indeed spiritual death which eventually resulted in physical death for Adam some 900 years later, and therefore everyone is born spiritually dead, (and spiritual death means separation from God in time) Jesus had to die spiritually as He was being judged for the sins of the world during His last three hours on the cross from 12:00 noon to about 3:00 PM. Jesus was still physically alive when He had finished paying for mankind's personal sins. While He was bearing our sins in His body His relationship with the Father was broken - spiritual death. His work with regard to paying the penalty for sin having been completed He as an act of His own volition dismissed His spirit and died physically. This was necessary so that His body could be resurrected making Jesus the first member of the human race to be resurrected. People before Christ had been resuscitated physically only to die again, but no one had ever been resuscitated before Jesus Christ.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:04 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Mike, the only thing transmitted is death. "death passed through into all mankind" (Romans 5:12).

Neither sin or the "old sin nature" or "spiritual death" was transmitted. If you are going to talk about any "nature" as it relates to mankind it would be best to say "dying nature."
I answered this in post #41 in reply to your statement in post #35. Refer to that.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:17 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,434,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Twin.spin, it is a contradiction to say that God is Just and then turn around and say that He is not fair. It is impossible for a Perfect and Just God to be unfair. God is merciful and just and fair.

And I have already stated that man is born with a sin nature as a result of Adam's original sin and is therefore spiritually dead. Adam's original sin is imputed to the sin nature.

It comes down to understanding that God will not sentence to eternity in the lake of fire anyone who cannot meet the requirement of making a volitional decision to place their faith in Christ.
And because of this original sin God's law (which shows no partiality) declares all humans "dead". That condition begins at conception Psalm 51:5. As Jesus said "flesh gives birth to flesh ..... but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit" We have no more control over when we are conceived physically as when we are spiritually.

What it comes down to is that Reformed churches expect individuals to make a dramatic decision to "commit" themselves to Jesus Christ. The Bible rejects the "decision theology", it teaches that that Faith receives the gift of salvation rather than causes salvation.

A good explanation can be found at Extreme Theology: Decision Theology: Can you make a decision for Christ?
by
Pastor Brian Wolfmueller of Hope Lutheran Church in Aurora, Colorado.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are contradicting yourself. You seem to be saying with that statement that I am implying that God is unfair. I have made it clear that it is impossible for God to be unfair. It is you who have called God unfair. You did so in this very post and you have done it on other threads. And I remember the Universalists getting all over you because of it. I don't recall them calling God unfair. You did. You need to think about what you're saying.
Actually MIke I didn't say God was unfair. That would imply wrong doing on God's part.... I said God is not fair in dealing with us. For as the scripture declares:
Psalm 103:10
he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
Psalm 130:3
If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?

The Psalmist is acknowledging that God isn't fair. Psalm 103:10
God's law holds all people accountable Romans 3:19
" each of us will give an account of himself to God." Romans 14:12

That is why Paul states: "But the gift is not like the trespass."
We are believers because of God's love and mercy... not because of our abilitiy to chose

In the Garden:
  • Humans chose to listen to the Devil
  • Humans chose to eat the forbiden fruit
  • Humans chose to blame God eventually of being unfair
because of their sinful condition, humans chose to run away and hide from God ... not towards him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That comment doesn't even make sense. Again, it is you who have stated that God is unfair. And you are wrong. God is absolute fair in all that He does. It is impossible for Him to be unfair in any way shape or form. And again, because God is fair and just, He will not cause those who cannot even conceive of Him to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Again, do a word search. Stop inserting your human logic conclusions. No where will you find the phrase "God is fair"..... that's because Mike, there was nothing enduring about you .. or me .... or any believer.

Faith is a gift of God by his grace and mercy .... nothing else.
If you think a believer can "volitional decision " ( aka decision theology), then that is to undo the clear instruction of Jesus as if He wanted to say,
“Apart from Me you can do nothing except invite Me into your heart.â€
instead of what he actually spoke:
"Whoever abides in Me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.†[John 15:5]


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Old 12-20-2011, 09:26 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 5,135,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I'm not sure who you addressed this reply to, but Jesus paid the penalty for sin and therefore sin is not the issue in salvation. Everyones personal sins were imputed to Christ on the cross where He paid for them. The only issue in eternal salvation is 'what think you of Christ'? A baby has no ability to comprehend the concept of God and the issue of salvation. Therefore, although a baby is born spiritually dead which means that he is separated from God in time, that separation in time will not be extended into eternity. He is still automatically eternally saved based upon the finished work of Christ on the cross if he dies before reaching God consciousness and therefore being held responsible by God for his decision.

Now once a person reaches God consciousness which simply means being able to understand the concept of a Supreme Being, God then holds that person responsible for his volitional response to that awareness. If a person is positive at the point of God consciousness then God will make sure that he has a chance to hear the gospel so that he can make a choice concerning Jesus Christ. If he does not place his faith in Christ before he dies, he will (now read this carefully) die in his sins as per John 8:24, BUT he will not be judged for those sins because those sins were already judged at the cross. Instead, when he stands before Jesus at the great white throne judgment he will be judged on the basis of his deeds which are the production of his imperfect relative human righteousness which God must reject (Rev 20:11-15). The unbeliever does not have the imputation of God's own Perfect Righteousness and by default must stand on his own righteousness which means that he will be eternally separated from God.
I think you need to reread your own post Mike. You did say this.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:26 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,983,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
That's right! The soul that sins is the one that dies. We do NOT inherit sin. That is a calvinist teaching, and a false one at that.

Katie
Yes ma'am!!
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Twin, I think you are misguided in your thinking. I have to side with Mike on this one, except for the fact that babies ARE NOT born spiritually dead. Our sin and our sin alone separate us from God, and babies do not sin. Nothing but sin makes us spiritually dead and separated from God. I don't know where Mike gets this idea from.

As for our not being able to seek God, that is total hogwash. Jesus said, "Seek ye first His kingdom...," (Mt. 6:33) "For EVERYONE who asks receives, and he who seeks finds..." (Mt. 7:8)

Everyone has the ability to seek God. Some choose to and others do not.

My God doesn't turn any away who truly seek him, and He sure would never hold a baby accountable for a sin they never committed.

Katie
What is sin? Sin is breaking one of God's Laws/commandments. We had 5 "babies" and I'm here to tell ya not one of them could or did break even one of them; as an infant. [well except perhaps getting 'mom' up in the middle of the night ]
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:42 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,434,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
What is sin? Sin is breaking one of God's Laws/commandments. We had 5 "babies" and I'm here to tell ya not one of them could or did break even one of them; as an infant. [well except perhaps getting 'mom' up in the middle of the night ]
Is this the truth or a lie...
" Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. " Psalm 51:5

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one" Romans 3:10
For the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23

or is it just a matter of simply wantonly ignore it because otherwise God wouldn't be "fair" that a baby dies because of original sin.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:00 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,983,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Is this the truth or a lie...
" Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. " Psalm 51:5

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one" Romans 3:10
For the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23


or is it just a matter of simply wantonly ignore it because otherwise God wouldn't be "fair" that a baby dies because of original sin.
Several things here:

First you have pulled one verse out of context of what the entire Scriptures say about children, [I will expound on that in a moment] and second much of the Psalms is written in what is called Hebrew poetry.

Hebrew poetry uses much bold and imaginative figures of speech. Error creeps in when one neglects to understand when a Fig. is being employed.

Example: De 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman‘s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto YHVH thy God.

Whole doctrines have been made around this verse insisting woman cannot/should not wear pants. The really funny part of it is men wore 'skirts' back then, but the real truth of the matter is this is a Hebraism which means woman AND men shouldn't dress like the opposite sex or as we would say today; don't be a cross-dresser.

Next one of the primary rules of Biblical interpretation suggests: “The language of Scripture may be regarded as figurative, if the literal interpretation will cause one passage to contradict another” (Dungan n.d., 196).

Now back to children and what the clear teaching of Scripture is in regards to them:

(1)The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Ezekiel 18:20); every person is responsible for his own conduct (Romans 14:12).

(2) sinfulness begans in one’s life [characterized] as youth (Genesis 8:21; Jeremiah 3:25).

(3) A child needs to a level of maturity before he/she is able to choose between evil/good (Isaiah 7:15, 16).

(4) And most importantly. Who did Christ use as models? He used children as ones to aspire [to enter the kingdom] (Matthew 18:3; 19:14; 1 Corinthians 14:20.

(5) The human spirit is not inherited from one’s parents; I'ts given by God at birth (Ecc.12:7; Hebrews 12:9).

Now back to Psa. 51:5. The above shows us David was speaking of being born into a sinful world, a sinful enviorment just as all of us are.

And last but not least think about this:

The Saviour was both conceived/brought forth from a human mother (Luke 1:31). If original sin is inherited from one’s mother, Christ had it!!!
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:02 AM
 
45,311 posts, read 26,855,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
What is sin? Sin is breaking one of God's Laws/commandments. We had 5 "babies" and I'm here to tell ya not one of them could or did break even one of them; as an infant. [well except perhaps getting 'mom' up in the middle of the night ]
Maybe that's because they are not able to carry out their sinful desires.

Who teaches toddlers to lie to get what they want? Who teaches toddlers to hit others and bite others when they don't get their way? We have to train kids to behave properly because it is not inherently in them to do good.

The desire to sin resides in all of us from birth.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:11 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,983,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Maybe that's because they are not able to carry out their sinful desires.

Who teaches toddlers to lie to get what they want? Who teaches toddlers to hit others and bite others when they don't get their way? We have to train kids to behave properly because it is not inherently in them to do good.

The desire to sin resides in all of us from birth.
Listen we raised 5 kids. I know full well an infant is born selfish, but that is so it can survive. It wasn't long before we understood their strong will have to be 'broken' and they needed to learn obedience. If for no other reason than they would some day have the wisdom/knowledge to know they must obey their Heavenly Father.

Disobedience is a learned action and if not corrected it continues to adulthood.

Neither of these has to do with original sin. A baby does not sin in being selfish at birth.

And BTW, IF man is born with original sin then Christ, who was born of a human mother, inherited it also.

Read my post above yours for what the Scriptures say about children.

ETA: When number 4 of our children, at probably 18 mos., decided to throw a temper tantrum which was quickly nipped in the bud [she tried it two more times til she discovered it didn't work]. So are you honestly telling me she was sinning and or breaking one of God's commanments when she did this? .

I think not. First of all she didn't even know what a commandment was at the time so how could she be sinning i.e breaking God's commandment? [defintion of sinning according to the Scriptures, BTW].

[quote]The desire to sin resides in all of us from birth]/quote]

That's because we are born in a flesh body; not because we inherit sin from anyone; our parents or Adam.

Last edited by mshipmate; 12-20-2011 at 11:38 AM..
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