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Because those babies died before reaching a point where they could understand the issue involved in salvation and would be held responsible for making a volitional decision about the Messiah, they were automatically saved.
And once again, in the absence of directly being addressed in Scripture, it is a matter of understanding that God is Perfectly fair. Since He requires a volitional choice to receive Christ as Savior, He cannot in fairness and justice send into the lake of fire those who never were ABLE to make a volitional choice in the first place. A person could live to an old age but because he never had the mental faculty to understand the issue or even to be able to conceive of the concept of God, he is therefore automatically saved. The issue in eternal salvation is your volition. If your volition cannot come into play then it would be unfair and unjust for God to sentence you to eternity in the lake of fire. God cannot be unfair to anyone.
Because those babies died before reaching a point where they could understand the issue involved in salvation and would be held responsible for making a volitional decision about the Messiah, they were automatically saved.
And once again, in the absence of directly being addressed in Scripture, it is a matter of understanding that God is Perfectly fair. Since He requires a volitional choice to receive Christ as Savior, He cannot in fairness and justice send into the lake of fire those who never were ABLE to make a volitional choice in the first place. A person could live to an old age but because he never had the mental faculty to understand the issue or even to be able to conceive of the concept of God, he is therefore automatically saved. The issue in eternal salvation is your volition. If your volition cannot come into play then it would be unfair and unjust for God to sentence you to eternity in the lake of fire. God cannot be unfair to anyone.
@Jer-Z there are so many scriptures , even in the old testament which speak of Gods fairness its not even funny. God is not unjust and will not forget the love you showed for him. Treat the foreigner fairly. Do not charge interest to the poor man. Do not show favor to the rich or the poor. Shall I go on?
Of course there are texts that show that babies are condemned also: Since every mouth certainly includes all people, babies also must be included.
Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ro 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men "The wages of sin is death" Babies die just like all people because of their sins. If babies died and were not guilty of sin, then God would certainly be unjust in letting them die, since they would be innocent of any guilt.
And finally, I will have to blow your whole theory with the following texts:
Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Of course there are texts that show that babies are condemned also: Since every mouth certainly includes all people, babies also must be included.
Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ro 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men "The wages of sin is death" Babies die just like all people because of their sins. If babies died and were not guilty of sin, then God would certainly be unjust in letting them die, since they would be innocent of any guilt.
And finally, I will have to blow your whole theory with the following texts:
Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
I'm not sure who you addressed this reply to, but Jesus paid the penalty for sin and therefore sin is not the issue in salvation. Everyones personal sins were imputed to Christ on the cross where He paid for them. The only issue in eternal salvation is 'what think you of Christ'? A baby has no ability to comprehend the concept of God and the issue of salvation. Therefore, although a baby is born spiritually dead which means that he is separated from God in time, that separation in time will not be extended into eternity. He is still automatically eternally saved based upon the finished work of Christ on the cross if he dies before reaching God consciousness and therefore being held responsible by God for his decision.
Now once a person reaches God consciousness which simply means being able to understand the concept of a Supreme Being, God then holds that person responsible for his volitional response to that awareness. If a person is positive at the point of God consciousness then God will make sure that he has a chance to hear the gospel so that he can make a choice concerning Jesus Christ. If he does not place his faith in Christ before he dies, he will (now read this carefully) die in his sins as per John 8:24, BUT he will not be judged for those sins because those sins were already judged at the cross. Instead, when he stands before Jesus at the great white throne judgment he will be judged on the basis of his deeds which are the production of his imperfect relative human righteousness which God must reject (Rev 20:11-15). The unbeliever does not have the imputation of God's own Perfect Righteousness and by default must stand on his own righteousness which means that he will be eternally separated from God.
If you understood that God is perfectly fair, which you don't; you are on record as saying that God is not fair, but if you understood that He is fair, then you would realize that God would not sentence to the lake of fire those who are incapable of meeting His requirement of believing on Christ.
God requires only a volitional decision to respond to the gospel with faith in Christ in order to be saved. If a person never reaches a point where they can understand the issue, then they are automatically saved because of Christ's finished work on the cross. And this is because it is impossible for God to be UNFAIR. There is no need for a specific verse which directly states that. It is a simple matter of understanding God's character.
Think about it. Would God send a person to the lake of fire when that person was never able to meet the requirement of 'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...' (Acts 16:31). Only if He were unfair. But God is perfectly just and perfectly fair.
That's right Mike... the reason it's conveniently side stepped about producing a verse that specifically says "God is fair".... is because God never said such thing.
You should be thankful God isn't fair because being fair would have damned you and everybody else.
All of us are stink-in filthy spiritually from conception not innocent.
Luther refered to people declaring how God should judge when it's not revealed in the Bible as satanical prying into God's business.
You have no authority to pronounce "automatic salvation" on situations that are not disclosed... that is not anybodies right to do so.
"If your volition cannot come into play" ....... when are going to stop with humanity having the ability to choose. Do a word search, for Pete sake. No where does scripture ever say that we have the ability to do so. Scriptures declare God is who chooses, not people. We are dead in our sins, not conceived neutral. Dead people can not do anything for themselves. Scripture only reveals that people can only reject God's gift.
I can't stand to hear this coming from you and the 's
"If your volition cannot come into play ... then what... accuse God of being unfair. .......... gee Mike, who else accuses God of being unfair, does UR sound familiar?
So .... let me get this out there one more time:
Scripture doesn't address the scenario of:
babies that die (after birth) whose Christian parents hinder them
they hinder them by rejecting the means of grace offered through baptism, so babies are not baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
babies that die (after birth) whose unchristian parents hinder them
they hinder them by being who the parents are...unbelievers.
babies that die in the womb of either parents
Such scenarios is best left at the mercy and grace of God... not what is fair according to the law of God.
Listen Mike, I don't reguard you as a non-Christian, but as a friend in Christ.
However, I will not be party to anybody who concludes that if something isn't to their liking, then that God must be then unfair.
I will oppose any such comments (especially my friends) ...
If that however leaves me friendless... then so be it.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-20-2011 at 12:06 AM..
Reason: possible spelling errors ... hope spell checker caught them all
That's right Mike... the reason it's conveniently side stepped about producing a verse that specifically says "God is fair".... is because God never said such thing.
You should be thankful God isn't fair because being fair would have damned you and everybody else. Humanity is stink-in filthy from conception not innocent. God is merciful and just... which is where the eternal fate of babies rest.
Twin.spin, it is a contradiction to say that God is Just and then turn around and say that He is not fair. It is impossible for a Perfect and Just God to be unfair. God is merciful and just and fair.
And I have already stated that man is born with a sin nature as a result of Adam's original sin and is therefore spiritually dead. Adam's original sin is imputed to the sin nature.
Quote:
Luther refereed to people declaring how God should judge when it's not revealed in the Bible as satanical prying into God's business. You have no authority to pronounce "automatic salvation" on situations that are not disclosed... that is not anybodies right to do so.
It comes down to understanding that God will not sentence to eternity in the lake of fire anyone who cannot meet the requirement of making a volitional decision to place their faith in Christ.
Quote:
"If your volition cannot come into play" ....... when are going to stop with humanity having the ability to choose. Do a word search, for Pete sake. No where does scripture ever say that we have the ability to do so. Scriptures declare God is who chooses, not people. We are dead in our sins, not conceived neutral. Dead people can not do anything for themselves, God is not accountable for humanity's rebellion and thus being a natural enemy of God.
Scripture only reveals that people can only reject God's gift.
To the contrary Twin.spin. Man can reject God's offer of salvation and he can accept God's offer of salvation. God invites those who will to receive the free gift of salvation. The gospel is an invitation as well as a proclamation of the good news.
Here is the invitation to receive the gift of salvation.
John 7:37 'Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ''If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38] He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' ''
If any man is thirsty, let him come. This is in contrast with John 5:40 which is in reference to those who refuse to come to Christ. ''and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life''.
The fact that Jesus said 'let him come' means that man can come in response to the gospel message.
The invitation is again seen in Revelation 22:17 '...And let the one who is thirsty come, let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.'
Let him who wishes come and take the water of life without cost. That's an invitation. It can be accepted or it can be rejected.
That same invitation is seen in Isa 55:1 ''Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters...
Now as for who God chooses, that is related to election and predestination which is not to salvation but to what those who choose to believe on Christ are elected and predestined to. God chooses those who He in His foreknowledge knew would manifest positive volition toward Jesus Christ. In election and the related predestination God determined in eternity past to make those who would believe on Christ to be conformed to the image of His Son.
Quote:
I can't stand to hear this coming from you and the 's
"If your volition cannot come into play ... then what... accuse God of being unfair. .......... gee Mike, who else accuses God of being unfair, does UR sound familiar?
You are contradicting yourself. You seem to be saying with that statement that I am implying that God is unfair. I have made it clear that it is impossible for God to be unfair. It is you who have called God unfair. You did so in this very post and you have done it on other threads. And I remember the Universalists getting all over you because of it. I don't recall them calling God unfair. You did. You need to think about what you're saying.
Quote:
So .... let me get this out there one more time:
Scripture doesn't address the scenario of:
babies that die (after birth) whose Christian parents hinder them
they hinder them by rejecting the means of grace offered through baptism, so babies are not baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
babies that die (after birth) whose unchristian parents hinder them
they hinder them by being who the parents are...unbelievers.
babies that die in the womb of either parents
Such scenarios is best left at the mercy and grace of God... not what is fair according to the law of God.
Listen Mike, I don't reguard you as a non-Christian, but as a friend.
However, I will not be party to anybody who concludes that if something isn't to my liking, then that God is unfair.
I will oppose any such comments (especially my friends) ...
If that however leaves me friendless... then so be it.
That comment doesn't even make sense. Again, it is you who have stated that God is unfair. And you are wrong. God is absolute fair in all that He does. It is impossible for Him to be unfair in any way shape or form. And again, because God is fair and just, He will not cause those who cannot even conceive of Him to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
And just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not a Universalist. All who can comprehend the existence of God but die having rejected the gospel will spend the eternal future in the lake of fire.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-20-2011 at 01:57 AM..
That's right Mike... the reason it's conveniently side stepped about producing a verse that specifically says "God is fair".... is because God never said such thing.
You should be thankful God isn't fair because being fair would have damned you and everybody else.
All of us are stink-in filthy spiritually from conception not innocent.
Luther refered to people declaring how God should judge when it's not revealed in the Bible as satanical prying into God's business.
You have no authority to pronounce "automatic salvation" on situations that are not disclosed... that is not anybodies right to do so.
"If your volition cannot come into play" ....... when are going to stop with humanity having the ability to choose. Do a word search, for Pete sake. No where does scripture ever say that we have the ability to do so. Scriptures declare God is who chooses, not people. We are dead in our sins, not conceived neutral. Dead people can not do anything for themselves. Scripture only reveals that people can only reject God's gift.
I can't stand to hear this coming from you and the 's
"If your volition cannot come into play ... then what... accuse God of being unfair. .......... gee Mike, who else accuses God of being unfair, does UR sound familiar?
So .... let me get this out there one more time:
Scripture doesn't address the scenario of:
babies that die (after birth) whose Christian parents hinder them
they hinder them by rejecting the means of grace offered through baptism, so babies are not baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
babies that die (after birth) whose unchristian parents hinder them
they hinder them by being who the parents are...unbelievers.
babies that die in the womb of either parents
Such scenarios is best left at the mercy and grace of God... not what is fair according to the law of God.
Listen Mike, I don't reguard you as a non-Christian, but as a friend in Christ.
However, I will not be party to anybody who concludes that if something isn't to their liking, then that God must be then unfair.
I will oppose any such comments (especially my friends) ...
If that however leaves me friendless... then so be it.
Twin, I think you are misguided in your thinking. I have to side with Mike on this one, except for the fact that babies ARE NOT born spiritually dead. Our sin and our sin alone separate us from God, and babies do not sin. Nothing but sin makes us spiritually dead and separated from God. I don't know where Mike gets this idea from.
As for our not being able to seek God, that is total hogwash. Jesus said, "Seek ye first His kingdom...," (Mt. 6:33) "For EVERYONE who asks receives, and he who seeks finds..." (Mt. 7:8)
Everyone has the ability to seek God. Some choose to and others do not.
My God doesn't turn any away who truly seek him, and He sure would never hold a baby accountable for a sin they never committed.
Twin.spin, it is a contradiction to say that God is Just and then turn around and say that He is not fair. It is impossible for a Perfect and Just God to be unfair. God is merciful and just and fair.
And I have already stated that man is born with a sin nature as a result of Adam's original sin and is therefore spiritually dead. Adam's original sin is imputed to the sin nature.
It comes down to understanding that God will not sentence to eternity in the lake of fire anyone who cannot meet the requirement of making a volitional decision to place their faith in Christ.
To the contrary Twin.spin. Man can reject God's offer of salvation and he can accept God's offer of salvation. God invites those who will to receive the free gift of salvation. The gospel is an invitation as well as a proclamation of the good news.
Here is the invitation to receive the gift of salvation.
John 7:37 'Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ''If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38] He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' ''
If any man is thirsty, let him come. This is in contrast with John 5:40 which is in reference to those who refuse to come to Christ. ''and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life''.
The fact that Jesus said 'let him come' means that man can come in response to the gospel message.
The invitation is again seen in Revelation 22:17 '...And let the one who is thirsty come, let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.'
Let him who wishes come and take the water of life without cost. That's an invitation. It can be accepted or it can be rejected.
That same invitation is seen in Isa 55:1 ''Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters...
Now as for who God chooses, that is related to election and predestination which is not to salvation but to what those who choose to believe on Christ are elected and predestined to. God chooses those who He in His foreknowledge knew would manifest positive volition toward Jesus Christ. In election and the related predestination God determined in eternity past to make those who would believe on Christ to be conformed to the image of His Son.
You are contradicting yourself. You seem to be saying with that statement that I am implying that God is unfair. I have made it clear that it is impossible for God to be unfair. It is you who have called God unfair. You did so in this very post and you have done it on other threads. And I remember the Universalists getting all over you because of it. I don't recall them calling God unfair. You did. You need to think about what you're saying.
That comment doesn't even make sense. Again, it is you who have stated that God is unfair. And you are wrong. God is absolute fair in all that He does. It is impossible for Him to be unfair in any way shape or form. And again, because God is fair and just, He will not cause those who cannot even conceive of Him to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
And just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not a Universalist. All who can comprehend the existence of God but die having rejected the gospel will spend the eternal future in the lake of fire.
Mike, I agree with most of what you say except I don't believe we are born with a sinful nature and therefore spiritually dead. Sin is the only thing that can separate us from God. I used to believe like you, but since reading and studying the scriptures in depth, I realize that doctrine is incorrect. Where in scripture does it say we are born with a sinful nature? I think we are born into a sinful environment, but we are inherently good at birth. We are created in God's image. Jesus compared children to the inhabitants of heaven. Why would Jesus tell. us to become like little children if children have a sinful nature? That makes no sense.
Mike, I agree with most of what you say except I don't believe we are born with a sinful nature and therefore spiritually dead. Sin is the only thing that can separate us from God. I used to believe like you, but since reading and studying the scriptures in depth, I realize that doctrine is incorrect. Where in scripture does it say we are born with a sinful nature? I think we are born into a sinful environment, but we are inherently good at birth. We are created in God's image. Jesus compared children to the inhabitants of heaven. Why would Jesus tell. us to become like little children if children have a sinful nature? That makes no sense.
Katie
I have read this thread and have a couple of thoughts. First off Katie, do you have children? If so, you would see their sinful nature from a young age. They can be rebellious, selfish, demanding, and tempermental. These alone qualify as a sinful nature, and there is no doubt in my mind that if these children could rip off anothers head to get what they want,,they would. I know we would like to think they wouldnt, cause they are so, so precious,,but really give it some thought.
I agree with Mike, that their sinful nature is bought by Christ, and where they knew not the Law, the Law is not imputed upon them. Romans 2 clarifies this. Paul even said he was once 'alive' apart from the Law, but when the Law came, sin was manifested, and he was dead.
It says in Romans that those without the Law, will be judged by the law God has written on their hearts. That settles that for those who have not had sound gospel preaching. God alone assumes 100% responsibility for this, and we have to let Him have it. Right?
But for the rest of us who are walking in Light, let me ask a question.
You want a fair trial at judgement,, or do you want Mercy?
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