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Old 01-16-2012, 08:26 AM
 
9,087 posts, read 4,459,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
You don't see the difference because you come to the scripture with the preconceived belief in the doctrine of original sin. If all Bibles read the way the NIV does, more people would believe as you do.

The passage is ambiguous. It can be interpreted several ways. The NIV gives it one interpretation only.

The NASV is at biblos.com. I have no issues with KJV, ASV, NKJV, NASV, RSV, ESV, or even Douay if we're discussing verses within the 66 books.

Still waiting for you to tell me what church you are affiliated with, and if you practice "infant baptism."

Hope your team wins!

Katie

THE.
Katie,

I'm affiliated with the Lutheran Church (specifically the Wisconsin Ev. Lutheran Synod .... aka WELS ) because I'm convinced that the Lutheran Church (those that are conservative) hold closest to what scripture teaches.

From the WELS web site... "what we believe" .... these two statements of belief are particular relevant to your question:
5. We believe that Adam and Eve lost their divine image when they yielded to the temptation of Satan and disobeyed God's command. This brought upon them the judgment of God: "You will surely die" (Genesis 2:17). Since that time all people are conceived and born in a sinful condition (Psalm 51:5) and are inclined only to evil (Genesis 8:21). "Flesh gives birth to flesh" (John 3:6). Since all people are by nature dead in sin and separated from God (Ephesians 2:1), they are unable to reconcile themselves to God by their own efforts and deeds.
11. We reject all views that look upon people as basically good by nature; that consider their natural tendencies to be mere weaknesses, which are not sinful; or that fail to recognize their total spiritual depravity and their inability to please God (Romans 3:9-18). This is what Scripture teaches about creation, mankind, and sin. This we believe, teach, and confess.


Verses like Genesis 2:17, Genesis 8:21, Psalm 51:5, John 3:6, Ephesians 2:1, Romans 3:9-18 is what dictates the belief. It is these verses that speak to the condition in which we find ourselfs by nature and if one does hold to these as truths ..... " more people would believe as I do"

I would say those who reject these verses for what they say are the one who have the preconceived belief.

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-16-2012 at 08:44 AM.. Reason: trying to correct grammer \ thought process
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Old 01-16-2012, 12:40 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 927,768 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Katie,

I'm affiliated with the Lutheran Church (specifically the Wisconsin Ev. Lutheran Synod .... aka WELS ) because I'm convinced that the Lutheran Church (those that are conservative) hold closest to what scripture teaches.

From the WELS web site... "what we believe" .... these two statements of belief are particular relevant to your question:
5. We believe that Adam and Eve lost their divine image when they yielded to the temptation of Satan and disobeyed God's command. This brought upon them the judgment of God: "You will surely die" (Genesis 2:17). Since that time all people are conceived and born in a sinful condition (Psalm 51:5) and are inclined only to evil (Genesis 8:21). "Flesh gives birth to flesh" (John 3:6). Since all people are by nature dead in sin and separated from God (Ephesians 2:1), they are unable to reconcile themselves to God by their own efforts and deeds.
11. We reject all views that look upon people as basically good by nature; that consider their natural tendencies to be mere weaknesses, which are not sinful; or that fail to recognize their total spiritual depravity and their inability to please God (Romans 3:9-18). This is what Scripture teaches about creation, mankind, and sin. This we believe, teach, and confess.

Verses like Genesis 2:17, Genesis 8:21, Psalm 51:5, John 3:6, Ephesians 2:1, Romans 3:9-18 is what dictates the belief. It is these verses that speak to the condition in which we find ourselfs by nature and if one does hold to these as truths ..... " more people would believe as I do"

I would say those who reject these verses for what they say are the one who have the preconceived belief.

Thank you Twin for sharing. I'm guessing that this chuch practices infant baptism? Yes? No?

When you have a chance, could you please respond to posts 482, 483?

Before I write anything else, let me offer my condolences for the Green Bay Packer's loss to the Giant's yesterday. I am from the northeast, but I was hoping Green Bay would win. I'm really hoping the 49ers take out the Giants next week. We'll just have to wait and see.

I do reject the verses you cited in support of original sin. I won't go over them all now, but I would like to point out this one in particular. (Eph. 2:1-3)

Notice who He made alive. It was those who were dead in their sins. It was those who once walked according to the course of this world. It was those who conducted themselves in the lust of their flesh. Those were the ones who by nature were children of wrath. Sin was second nature to these people. But God who is rich in His mercy made them alive.

Common sense, once again, tells us that this cannot be possibly referring to babies. First, babies do not sin, therefore, they cannot be dead in their sins. Did babies walk according to the course of this world? Did babies conduct themselves in the lust of their flesh? How could they? They don't even know right from wrong.

Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Blessings,

Katie
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:07 PM
 
21,867 posts, read 9,729,577 times
Reputation: 3704
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
5. We believe that Adam and Eve lost their divine image when they yielded to the temptation of Satan and disobeyed God's command. This brought upon them the judgment of God: "You will surely die" (Genesis 2:17). Since that time all people are conceived and born in a sinful condition (Psalm 51:5) and are inclined only to evil (Genesis 8:21). "Flesh gives birth to flesh" (John 3:6). Since all people are by nature dead in sin and separated from God (Ephesians 2:1), they are unable to reconcile themselves to God by their own efforts and deeds.

11. We reject all views that look upon people as basically good by nature; that consider their natural tendencies to be mere weaknesses, which are not sinful; or that fail to recognize their total spiritual depravity and their inability to please God (
Romans 3:9-18). This is what Scripture teaches about creation, mankind, and sin. This we believe, teach, and confess.

Verses like Genesis 2:17, Genesis 8:21, Psalm 51:5, John 3:6, Ephesians 2:1, Romans 3:9-18 is what dictates the belief. It is these verses that speak to the condition in which we find ourselfs by nature and if one does hold to these as truths ..... " more people would believe as I do"

I would say those who reject these verses for what they say are the one who have the preconceived belief.
There is no more Satanic conception of humanity than what is presented here, IMO.
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:44 PM
 
9,087 posts, read 4,459,756 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
[/indent]Thank you Twin for sharing. I'm guessing that this chuch practices infant baptism? Yes? No?

When you have a chance, could you please respond to posts 482, 483?

Before I write anything else, let me offer my condolences for the Green Bay Packer's loss to the Giant's yesterday. I am from the northeast, but I was hoping Green Bay would win. I'm really hoping the 49ers take out the Giants next week. We'll just have to wait and see.

I do reject the verses you cited in support of original sin. I won't go over them all now, but I would like to point out this one in particular. (Eph. 2:1-3)

Notice who He made alive. It was those who were dead in their sins. It was those who once walked according to the course of this world. It was those who conducted themselves in the lust of their flesh. Those were the ones who by nature were children of wrath. Sin was second nature to these people. But God who is rich in His mercy made them alive.

Common sense, once again, tells us that this cannot be possibly referring to babies. First, babies do not sin, therefore, they cannot be dead in their sins. Did babies walk according to the course of this world? Did babies conduct themselves in the lust of their flesh? How could they? They don't even know right from wrong.

Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Blessings,

Katie
Katie,
Oh the Packers ......
" I'm really hoping the 49ers take out the Giants next week." ... so do I.

Ephesians 2:1-3

If you read carefully that passage at the end it says: "and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

What makes a person a "by nature children of wrath" ? ..... if it is not sin?

God does not say that we begin not in that nature ... then become that nature at some point ... then come out of it.

Every verse that speaks about our spiritual condition is that by nature we all are spiritually dead......... thus "the natural mind is hostile to God, it does not submit.. nor can it do so"
-----------------------------------------------

Yes, the Lutheran Church does infant baptism. One of the reasons for that is because Ephesians 2:1-3 ... "We all by nature are ..children of wrath " does not exclude any age group.

Why do you think God required in the OT, parents to bring their babies after 8 days to the temple with a sin offering sacrifice?
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:57 AM
 
Location: US
9,507 posts, read 3,269,785 times
Reputation: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
[/indent]Thank you Twin for sharing. I'm guessing that this chuch practices infant baptism? Yes? No?

When you have a chance, could you please respond to posts 482, 483?

Before I write anything else, let me offer my condolences for the Green Bay Packer's loss to the Giant's yesterday. I am from the northeast, but I was hoping Green Bay would win. I'm really hoping the 49ers take out the Giants next week. We'll just have to wait and see.

I do reject the verses you cited in support of original sin. I won't go over them all now, but I would like to point out this one in particular. (Eph. 2:1-3)

Notice who He made alive. It was those who were dead in their sins. It was those who once walked according to the course of this world. It was those who conducted themselves in the lust of their flesh. Those were the ones who by nature were children of wrath. Sin was second nature to these people. But God who is rich in His mercy made them alive.

Common sense, once again, tells us that this cannot be possibly referring to babies. First, babies do not sin, therefore, they cannot be dead in their sins. Did babies walk according to the course of this world? Did babies conduct themselves in the lust of their flesh? How could they? They don't even know right from wrong.

Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Blessings,

Katie
I still say that you are looking at this in a humanistic way...
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Old 01-17-2012, 02:02 AM
 
Location: US
9,507 posts, read 3,269,785 times
Reputation: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Katie,
Oh the Packers ......
" I'm really hoping the 49ers take out the Giants next week." ... so do I.

Ephesians 2:1-3

If you read carefully that passage at the end it says: "and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

What makes a person a "by nature children of wrath" ? ..... if it is not sin?

God does not say that we begin not in that nature ... then become that nature at some point ... then come out of it.

Every verse that speaks about our spiritual condition is that by nature we all are spiritually dead......... thus "the natural mind is hostile to God, it does not submit.. nor can it do so"
-----------------------------------------------

Yes, the Lutheran Church does infant baptism. One of the reasons for that is because Ephesians 2:1-3 ... "We all by nature are ..children of wrath " does not exclude any age group.

Why do you think God required in the OT, parents to bring their babies after 8 days to the temple with a sin offering sacrifice?
She is going to ask for scripture for that one, but she will say that it still does not say that babies are in a state of sin...The idea that we are inately good or pure is a humanistic philosophy...
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Old 01-17-2012, 04:30 AM
 
2,637 posts, read 927,768 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Katie,
Oh the Packers ......
" I'm really hoping the 49ers take out the Giants next week." ... so do I.

Ephesians 2:1-3

If you read carefully that passage at the end it says: "and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

What makes a person a "by nature children of wrath" ? ..... if it is not sin?

God does not say that we begin not in that nature ... then become that nature at some point ... then come out of it.

Every verse that speaks about our spiritual condition is that by nature we all are spiritually dead......... thus "the natural mind is hostile to God, it does not submit.. nor can it do so"
-----------------------------------------------

Yes, the Lutheran Church does infant baptism. One of the reasons for that is because Ephesians 2:1-3 ... "We all by nature are ..children of wrath " does not exclude any age group.

Why do you think God required in the OT, parents to bring their babies after 8 days to the temple with a sin offering sacrifice?
So what happens to the billions of babies who don't get baptized? Are they condemned to eternal suffering for a sin they didn't themselves commit or a sinful nature they have no control over? Would our God who is fair and just do such a thing?

Won't have a lot of time for the forum for the next 6-8 weeks. Doing a long term sub position for the girl who took my place teaching seventh grade math when I retired.
I'll still be on but not nearly as much.

Blessings,

Katie
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:28 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,164,716 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
So what happens to the billions of babies who don't get baptized? Are they condemned to eternal suffering for a sin they didn't themselves commit or a sinful nature they have no control over? Would our God who is fair and just do such a thing?

Won't have a lot of time for the forum for the next 6-8 weeks. Doing a long term sub position for the girl who took my place teaching seventh grade math when I retired.
I'll still be on but not nearly as much.

Blessings,

Katie

I disagree that a baby (including the unborn) goes to hell simply over the fact that it was conceived as a human regaurdless of the nature it has.

Some will preach that all those babies are now suffering eternally, although they move the goal posts because they can't bring themselves to include the unborn. They make exceptions themselves where none exist.

That said Katie, there are no scriptural exceptions for babies. Saying they do not sin or have not sinned, is not the point, nor is it the issue scripturally. Babies are born human, their nature has the inclination to sin, it is irrelevant that up to a certain point and time in their life that they have never comitted sin.

Nothing changes within a human being from the time it is conceived to the time it actually does commit it's first sin, whatever that may be. The human nature is inclined to sin and that starts at the very moment of conception.

As I have said before, the problem is that people seem insistant on painting what I just said about the human condition as something terrible and horrible and as such think that that condition will warrant God acting like a human gone mad over it.

Again, just repeating the understanding I have, there are no scriptural exceptions eliminating babies from the human condition, they are born with the inclination to sin, that is why we all end up sinning.

The loophole some beliefs find is a farce, while there are no exceptions for babies escaping Gods judgment, there also is no scriptural precident that baptising a baby saves it either.

So what is left to believe about babies? Well, a person has to believe that while a baby that has not sinned does not escape judgment by God, you have to trust that indeed a baby has done nothing to warrant damnation either.

It is not about God being fair or not, we can know from his character, that simply is not something God does.

The first step is understanding that God judging all humans is a good thing and we have to escape religions grasp and realize that the best place any human being at any point in their life can be is in Gods hands.

All babies, even the ones who die, including all mankind, is in Gods hands, where else is a better place to be?
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Old 01-17-2012, 02:37 PM
 
9,087 posts, read 4,459,756 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
So what happens to the billions of babies who don't get baptized? Are they condemned to eternal suffering for a sin they didn't themselves commit or a sinful nature they have no control over? Would our God who is fair and just do such a thing?

Won't have a lot of time for the forum for the next 6-8 weeks. Doing a long term sub position for the girl who took my place teaching seventh grade math when I retired.
I'll still be on but not nearly as much.

Blessings,

Katie
So what many want to know is ... what happens to babies that are "hindered" by parents\ situations that prevents them in coming to the knowledge of the truth? For Jesus commands: "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them"

A: Most importantly .... God is just and merciful. What happens no one can accuse God of being unfair.



B: "Fair" as to what ?
  • If God is "fair" to the Law....... then: all babies who are hindered from the saving truth are sent to hell
    • no one is righteous, not even one
    • all have gone astray
    • by nature we all are children of wrath
    • Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.’
yet
  • If God is "fair" to mercy ..... then:
    • the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.
    • “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

CONCLUSION: Our desire to have an definitive answer is outweighed by God's definitive silence. The law gives one opinion, mercy gives another and we are not told how God ultimatley decides the one over another.

Therefore... I leave it at the mercy seat of God and leave it at that.
Fortunatly Jesus sympathizes with our burdens, for I have no answer that doesn't burden the fairness of Law and Justice or the other opinion of Just and Mercy.

In other words...
what would be "fair" to the Law Standard, would be "unfair" to Mercy standard, and what would be "fair" to the Mercy Standard would be "unfair" to the Law.

It is beyond this potsherd to quarrel with his Maker, I who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-17-2012 at 02:47 PM..
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:32 AM
 
661 posts, read 214,654 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
So what many want to know is ... what happens to babies that are "hindered" by parents\ situations that prevents them in coming to the knowledge of the truth? For Jesus commands: "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them"

A: Most importantly .... God is just and merciful. What happens no one can accuse God of being unfair.



B: "Fair" as to what ?
  • If God is "fair" to the Law....... then: all babies who are hindered from the saving truth are sent to hell
    • no one is righteous, not even one
    • all have gone astray
    • by nature we all are children of wrath
    • Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.’
yet
  • If God is "fair" to mercy ..... then:
    • the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.
    • “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

CONCLUSION: Our desire to have an definitive answer is outweighed by God's definitive silence. The law gives one opinion, mercy gives another and we are not told how God ultimatley decides the one over another.

Therefore... I leave it at the mercy seat of God and leave it at that.
Fortunatly Jesus sympathizes with our burdens, for I have no answer that doesn't burden the fairness of Law and Justice or the other opinion of Just and Mercy.

In other words...
what would be "fair" to the Law Standard, would be "unfair" to Mercy standard, and what would be "fair" to the Mercy Standard would be "unfair" to the Law.

It is beyond this potsherd to quarrel with his Maker, I who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Hi twin spin,

Your argument and conclusion assume that children inherit guilt and are born deserving condemnation. If this not so, judgment by the law and mercy in spite of sin are both moot. You'd need to first prove conclusively that babies are born sinful to establish your defense.

Best,
Stephanie
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