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Old 01-19-2012, 05:01 PM
 
661 posts, read 237,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Stephanie,
There is a spiritual as well as physical death. Adam's sin brought about both the physical and spiritual death.

Spiritual death is not determined by the transgressions because as Paul points out even when there was no law, between Adam and Moses death still existed. All that the law does is increase the offenses .... in other words, the law just piles on.

Nobody starts life neutral or better towards God. "Sin" is the equilivent of an archer that shoots an arrow and who misses the exact middle of the bullseye. That imperfection is the "sin" that the Psalmist is speaking of in Psalm 51:5.

Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Genesis 6:5)
Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Psalm 51:5)
Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Romans 5:13)
Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Romans 3:10)
Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Romans 3:23)
Twin, I forgot to ask and I really wanted to know what you think about this.... if we all sin because we are sinners (sin nature), then why did Adam sin?

Steph
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:33 PM
 
9,429 posts, read 4,911,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Even if they were conceived in sin, meaning their parents were sinners, where does it say the baby inherits the parents sin?

Twin, you're not still clinging to that.corrupt NIV interpretation are you?

You Friend,

Katie
Katie...yup ( the verses are the same in other translations that you mention)

Genesis 6:5
"The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become and the inclination of the heart is evil all the time"
Genesis 8:21
“Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood."
Romans 3:23
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" ...
Romans 3:10
"no one is righteous, not even one" ...
Psalm 14:3
"All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one"
Psalm 53:3
Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
Romans 3:12
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-19-2012 at 05:44 PM..
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:56 PM
 
9,429 posts, read 4,911,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
Twin, I forgot to ask and I really wanted to know what you think about this.... if we all sin because we are sinners (sin nature), then why did Adam sin?

Steph
Because IMO they were not satisfied with being the created, but they wanted to be like God.

In doing so they plunged the entire human race into a sinful nature, "nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature"
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:02 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,334,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Paul was alive meaning he wasn't spiritually dead. There can only be one time in Paul's life that he was alive before he died and that was when he was a child. Paul was alive spiritually, then he died spiritually when he learned right from wrong and went on to sin. Finally, Paul was made alive when he was born again.
I don't think Paul is using the word "alive" in a spiritual sense though. If you go back a few verses (ver. 1-3), Paul uses the same Greek word ζάω, and it simply means to live, as in day to day living. And I think that is how Paul continues to use the word in ver 9.

Paul, at one time, lived his life apart from the law. However, for Paul to live his life as such does not imply (nor does the text say) that Paul was "spiritually" alive in so doing. Paul was simply living apart, at that time, from the knowledge of the law.

I also think Paul is reflecting back (in retrospect) with a sense of knowing now what he did not know then. Paul did not know he was living (Greek εζων) his life in spiritual death until the law made it known to him.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I don't think Paul is using the word "alive" in a spiritual sense though. If you go back a few verses (ver. 1-3), Paul uses the same Greek word ζάω, and it simply means to live, as in day to day living. And I think that is how Paul continues to use the word in ver 9.

Paul, at one time, lived his life apart from the law. However, for Paul to live his life as such does not imply (nor does the text say) that Paul was "spiritually" alive in so doing. Paul was simply living apart, at that time, from the knowledge of the law.

I also think Paul is reflecting back (in retrospect) with a sense of knowing now what he did not know then. Paul did not know he was living (Greek εζων) his life in spiritual death until the law made it known to him.
Hi Alabama, hope you are well this fine morning

I'll jump right in here..... So, Paul was saying "I was going through physical life without realizing that I was spiritually dead until I gained knowledge of the law"?

I think this is an exegesis that is designed to support your conclusion. Just because the same Greek word is used elsewhere does not mean that Paul intended an identical meaning for each use of that word. I am not saying it's unimportant how the word is intended elsewhere, just that it is not the only consideration. The same principle can be applied to the words "dead", "death", "die", etc. We need to look at the context to understand whether Paul is meaning physical or spiritual death.

The text doesn't say the knowledge of the law brought him the realization that he had been spiritually dead all this time. It just says that when the commandment came, sin came alive and he actually died (I think we can agree that he died spiritually). I wonder what the greek tense of the verb "died" is. I am not a scholar of Greek but maybe that would also shed light on the meaning...?

In Christ
Steph
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:10 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,375,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Because IMO they were not satisfied with being the created, but they wanted to be like God.

In doing so they plunged the entire human race into a sinful nature, "nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature"

What caused the lack of satisfaction?
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:54 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,334,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
Hi Alabama, hope you are well this fine morning

I'll jump right in here..... So, Paul was saying "I was going through physical life without realizing that I was spiritually dead until I gained knowledge of the law"?
Yes, that's how I understand it. And that idea is not foreign to Paul. Paul gives an example of that concept: being dead while living (the same Greek word ζάω), here:

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Quote:
I think this is an exegesis that is designed to support your conclusion. Just because the same Greek word is used elsewhere does not mean that Paul intended an identical meaning for each use of that word.
However, it does support what I've said.

Quote:
I am not saying it's unimportant how the word is intended elsewhere, just that it is not the only consideration. The same principle can be applied to the words "dead", "death", "die", etc. We need to look at the context to understand whether Paul is meaning physical or spiritual death.
Agreed, and?

Quote:
The text doesn't say the knowledge of the law brought him the realization that he had been spiritually dead all this time. It just says that when the commandment came, sin came alive and he actually died (I think we can agree that he died spiritually).
The text does tell us that sin was "revived". It was always there within Paul, otherwise there would be nothing to "revive". As such, sin became known to Paul through the law. And I think that idea fits well with what Paul is telling us.

Quote:
I wonder what the greek tense of the verb "died" is. I am not a scholar of Greek but maybe that would also shed light on the meaning...?
(2nd) Aorist tense, indicative mood. Ie: Past tense event. And perhaps with continual on going results.
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Old 01-20-2012, 01:34 PM
 
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Understanding what sin is just becomes so much easier when you define it as 1 John 3:4 does. Sin is absent apart from law, not "present but unknown to us" apart from law. What does sin even mean without law?

Really it is rather simple. However, I'll respond to your post in more detail tonight...
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Old 01-20-2012, 04:37 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,334,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
Understanding what sin is just becomes so much easier when you define it as 1 John 3:4 does. Sin is absent apart from law, not "present but unknown to us" apart from law. What does sin even mean without law?
However, 1 Joh 3:4 does not define sin as being "absent" apart from law, but rather those who sin transgress also the law:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Consequently, sin is not limited to the transgression of the law. Those who sin may also sin without law, shown here:

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Where I think you're headed with this (and I might be wrong) is that apart from law sin is not imputed. However, sin was still present "in the world", even though it was not being imputed, or reckoned as such, for purposes of penalty.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
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Old 01-20-2012, 06:40 PM
 
661 posts, read 237,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
However, 1 Joh 3:4 does not define sin as being "absent" apart from law, but rather those who sin transgress also the law:
When I say "absent" I mean that without law, sin lacks a definition. You cannot define sin without referencing law which is what John was saying when he said sin is lawlessness (or transgression of the law, depending on your translation).

Quote:
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Consequently, sin is not limited to the transgression of the law.
Unfortunately, I disagree. Sin is limited to and defined as transgression of the law. The word translated "also" here is the most common conjunction in the NT and can also easily mean moreover, indeed, and, even, also, namely. So to hang everything on this word is a little precarious.

Quote:

Those who sin may also sin without law, shown here:

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Actually Paul's point here is exactly the opposite:

Those who sin without the Law of Moses (which is the law Paul is referring to here) are Gentiles, and Paul explicitly says two verses later that the Gentiles are a law to themselves as they have the work of the Law written on their hearts! Which, unsurprisingly, they have transgressed. Paul's whole point in this section of Romans is that everyone has God's law ... Everyone without distinction has transgressed it... And every transgressor will perish. I will grant that it is so easy to trip up in NT exegesis over the word "law" and Paul's various uses of it. I am not saying I have that figured out, but I try to let the context, audience, and point of the passage help in figuring out what is intended.

Quote:

Where I think you're headed with this (and I might be wrong) is that apart from law sin is not imputed. However, sin was still present "in the world", even though it was not being imputed, or reckoned as such, for purposes of penalty.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
That's not really where i was headed (though some people would go that direction with the text). Here's what I am saying....

If sin is not imputed where there is no law, then why was it imputed to everyone from Adam to Moses? They all died (spiritually!). Ahh... but there was a law..... It was written in their hearts and their transgressions were not like Adam's transgression. Adam transgressed a direct verbal command of God (similar to the God-given law of Moses which came from God's mouth to their ears). Romans 5:13-14 should be read together: Paul is building a logical argument to show that everyone is under God's law, regardless of whether they are Gentile or Jew. He does this brilliantly by harking back to the days before Moses' Law was given to definitively make his case and establish to his readers, who are both Jews and Gentiles, that "there is no distinction, for all have sinned [transgressed God's law!] and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"!!
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