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Old 01-20-2012, 08:59 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,330,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
When I say "absent" I mean that without law, sin lacks a definition. You cannot define sin without referencing law which is what John was saying when he said sin is lawlessness (or transgression of the law, depending on your translation).
A lack of definition does not mean absent. Sin was "in the world" prior to "the law". Regardless of how you define it.

Quote:
Unfortunately, I disagree. Sin is limited to and defined as transgression of the law. The word translated "also" here is the most common conjunction in the NT and can also easily mean moreover, indeed, and, even, also, namely. So to hang everything on this word is a little precarious.
I'm really not "hanging" anything on it. I pointed out where scripture tells us that sin was "in the world" until the law. The difference being that sin was not being imputed under those conditions. But sin, never the less, existed as such.

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Actually Paul's point here is exactly the opposite:
Opposite of what??? It forms the context of what follows.

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Those who sin without the Law of Moses (which is the law Paul is referring to here) are Gentiles,
The term "without law" is from the Greek ανομως, and simply means lawless, or without law. It's not the Mosaic law, "the law" (with the definite article), that is under consideration here. Gentiles that are without "a law" are "a law" unto themselves.

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and Paul explicitly says two verses later that the Gentiles are a law to themselves as they have the work of the Law written on their hearts! Which, unsurprisingly, they have transgressed.
Yes, Gentiles show the "work" of "the law" written in their hearts. However, that is quite different than having "the law" and the penalties derived from "the law". Here is a more literal translation (YLT) that better illustrates how Paul is using the terms "a law" and "the law":

Rom 2:14 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law;
Rom 2:15 who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,

Quote:
Paul's whole point in this section of Romans is that everyone has God's law ... Everyone without distinction has transgressed it... And every transgressor will perish. I will grant that it is so easy to trip up in NT exegesis over the word "law" and Paul's various uses of it. I am not saying I have that figured out, but I try to let the context, audience, and point of the passage help in figuring out what is intended.
Yes, I would agree with some of what you've said. All have "law", whether written upon their hearts (a law) such as the Gentiles, or on tablets of stone (the law) such as the Jews. I don't really "trip up" about that distinction. I also don't really see how that changes the fact that all (including infants) are born into the world spiritually dead (Eph 2:1), and are by nature "children of wrath" (Eph 2:3).

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That's not really where i was headed (though some people would go that direction with the text). Here's what I am saying....

If sin is not imputed where there is no law, then why was it imputed to everyone from Adam to Moses? They all died (spiritually!),
Because (for that) all did sin. All sinned "in Adam", and were imputed as such.

Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

Quote:
Ahh... but there was a law..... It was written in their hearts and their transgressions were not like Adam's transgression. Adam transgressed a direct verbal command of God (similar to the God-given law of Moses which came from God's mouth to their ears). Romans 5:13-14 should be read together: Paul is building a logical argument to show that everyone is under God's law, regardless of whether they are Gentile or Jew. He does this brilliantly by harking back to the days before Moses' Law was given to definitively make his case and establish to his readers, who are both Jews and Gentiles, that "there is no distinction, for all have sinned [transgressed God's law!] and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"!!
However, sin was NOT being imputed for those sins committed from Adam till Moses. And I'm not sure you're grasping that point.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

However, death still reigned from Adam till Moses:

Rom 5:14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.

And even though death reigned from Adam till Moses, sins committed from Adam till Moses were NOT the basis of that reigning death and condemnation, but were rather the consequence of Adam's sin. The single offense by Adam was the cause of death and condemnation upon all.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

And the reason why judgment came upon all to condemnation was that all did sin. All did sin "in Adam":

Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Anyway, that's about the best I can explain it...hope it helps....

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-20-2012 at 09:08 PM..
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Old 01-21-2012, 03:23 AM
 
Location: US
10,099 posts, read 3,776,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Yes, that's how I understand it. And that idea is not foreign to Paul. Paul gives an example of that concept: being dead while living (the same Greek word ζάω), here:

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

However, it does support what I've said.

Agreed, and?

The text does tell us that sin was "revived". It was always there within Paul, otherwise there would be nothing to "revive". As such, sin became known to Paul through the law. And I think that idea fits well with what Paul is telling us.

(2nd) Aorist tense, indicative mood. Ie: Past tense event. And perhaps with continual on going results.
Aorist tense, if memory serves, is a past completed action...
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:31 AM
Status: "ask why me ... rather than not why not them" (set 29 days ago)
 
9,412 posts, read 4,893,907 times
Reputation: 1025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
What caused the lack of satisfaction?
Adam and Eve are unique to human history.
They are the only two humans who did not start their existance "in sin".
So unlike the rest of humanity, they truly had a choice ....... either God or Satan. They themself caused it because they chose evil over good.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:28 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,015,662 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Adam and Eve are unique to human history.
They are the only two humans who did not start their existance "in sin".
So unlike the rest of humanity, they truly had a choice ....... either God or Satan. They themself caused it because they chose evil over good.
Hi Twin,

Are you saying that we truly don't have a choice like A & E did? I think Jesus, who was human, proved that we do have a choice. He showed us that we don't have to sin. I'm not saying we won't. But He proved it doesn't have to be that way.

Do you think A & E had a sinful nature?

I don't. I think they had a human, fleshly nature just like we do. That's why they sinned. They were tempted.

Blessings,

Kate
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:55 PM
Status: "ask why me ... rather than not why not them" (set 29 days ago)
 
9,412 posts, read 4,893,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Hi Twin,

Are you saying that we truly don't have a choice like A & E did? I think Jesus, who was human, proved that we do have a choice. He showed us that we don't have to sin. I'm not saying we won't. But He proved it doesn't have to be that way.

Do you think A & E had a sinful nature?

I don't. I think they had a human, fleshly nature just like we do. That's why they sinned. They were tempted.

Blessings,

Kate
Hello Katie,
That is correct, we truly do not have a choice like A & E.

Katie... nobody but Jesus is God and human at the same time. That is what is unique about the virgin birth. Jesus was conceived without that sin nature ( "in sin" of Psalm 51:5). Remember "flesh gives birth to flesh"
A & E was not created with a "sin nature", for that would not be in the image of God (which is perfect).

Jesus didn't come to show us that we don't have to sin, Jesus isn't an example for us.

Have a blessed week.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:17 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,015,662 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Hello Katie,
That is correct, we truly do not have a choice like A & E.

Katie... nobody but Jesus is God and human at the same time. That is what is unique about the virgin birth. Jesus was conceived without that sin nature ( "in sin" of Psalm 51:5). Remember "flesh gives birth to flesh"
A & E was not created with a "sin nature", for that would not be in the image of God (which is perfect).

Jesus didn't come to show us that we don't have to sin, Jesus isn't an example for us.

Have a blessed week.
Thanks Twin. I'm going into my second week of teaching, and I'm aleady asking myself, "Why did I ever say I would do this?" One week down, five to go. I hope I can survive it. I'd forgotten just how feisty seventh graders could be.

I think Jesus was born exactly as we are, with a fleshly nature. How else could he have been tempted? The scripture says He was tempted in all ways just as we are.

You see, I don't think that having a fleshly nature is imperfect. It is how God made us, and I think He made A & E exactly the same way. When I say we are created in God's image, I am referring to our spiritual selves, not our fleshly selves. God is spirit. It is our spirits that are perfect. Our fleshly desires is what messes us up.

I think Jesus is our example. He showed us that He could walk away from temptation, and so can we. We do not have to sin.

I understand "flesh gives birth to flesh," but we may be understanding it differently.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:54 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,366,535 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Adam and Eve are unique to human history.
They are the only two humans who did not start their existance "in sin".
So unlike the rest of humanity, they truly had a choice ....... either God or Satan. They themself caused it because they chose evil over good.

What caused such a poor choice?
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:00 AM
Status: "ask why me ... rather than not why not them" (set 29 days ago)
 
9,412 posts, read 4,893,907 times
Reputation: 1025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
What caused such a poor choice?
As I said earlier... They themself caused it because they desired to chose evil over good.

..., after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:48 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,366,535 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
As I said earlier... They themself caused it because they desired to chose evil over good.

..., after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."
Actually you have never address the root cause of anything.

What conceived that desire? According to that verse, their desires were conceived before they chose evil over good, so what caused such poor desires to exist with in Adam and Eve?
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Old 01-23-2012, 11:19 AM
Status: "ask why me ... rather than not why not them" (set 29 days ago)
 
9,412 posts, read 4,893,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Actually you have never address the root cause of anything.

What conceived that desire? According to that verse, their desires were conceived before they chose evil over good, so what caused such poor desires to exist with in Adam and Eve?
Actually I have. Why you don't understand I do not know.

It's very simple....what caused their desire to follow evil over righteous was the ability to make a desired choice.
They desired to reject God.
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