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I say it is because they were no different than us. Yes, they were created SPIRITUALLY perfect just as we are, but they had fleshly desires just like us.
Kate
Personally I think understanding that we actually are NOT created spiritually perfect in the first place is one of the more difficult things to admit to.
And that ultimatly is the cause of the problems we face as human beings.
Well, I do not believe that explains it, it is not that I do not understand, it is that you haven't actually explained the cause. You have explained the result of a poor choice. In this post you seem to say that they had the ability to make a poor choice, but that doesn't explain why they made it.
Jesus had the ability to make a desired choice. If the "CAUSE" of making a poor choice was the ability to make a desired choice, then Jesus would have made poor choices too, since he had the ability to make a desired choice.
So the CAUSE of Adam and Eves poor choices was not caused by their ability to choose.
This is the same question you, Steph and I have asked. What caused the poor choice?
Since Genesis is the truth and Psalm 51:5 (and all the other such verses) is the truth, then there isn't much to ascertain .......... is there.
Then it becomes ... did God really say?
For those who are humbly seeking the truth (and I am not suggesting you aren't), the question is never "Did God really say...?" but rather "What does God mean by this?"
There are an abundance of scriptures which seem to claim or infer the innocent (note: not righteous) state of children. (a quick google search will yield sufficient evidence for the existence of these verses) These apparently conflicting scriptures must have some way of being reconciled, not so? Surely God didn't say that we are born both wicked and innocent?
Furthermore, a closer look into the origins of the official acceptance of the doctrine of original sin by 'the church so called', including the reasons it was accepted as orthodox, and some of the practices that were reaped from the virtual canonization of this doctrine, warrant a closer look at what most of us, including myself, have grown up accepting without question. I believe an excellent question to ask on any question of controversy is: What did the early church fathers believe? And if at all possible to find that answer!!
Personally I think understanding that we actually are NOT created spiritually perfect in the first place is one of the more difficult things to admit to.
And that ultimatly is the cause of the problems we face as human beings.
I believe we are created in God's image, spiritually perfect. It is the flesh that is weak. We are born human with fleshly desires. When we are tempted, we choose to do right or wrong.
That was what Satan was counting on, wasn't it.
Satan was making the same deduction as you're proposing, that Jesus would make the wrong choice just as Adam and Eve did.
But .......... Jesus accomplished what Adam & Eve didn't.
The CAUSE of Adam and Eves poor choices was caused by their ability to choose.
Twin that makes no sense. You are saying A&E sinned because they had a choice.
You're saying we have no choice between good and evil. If we have no free will to choose good or evil, then is God choosing for us? I'm really confused by your answer.
I believe we are created in God's image, spiritually perfect. It is the flesh that is weak. We are born human with fleshly desires. When we are tempted, we choose to do right or wrong.
Kate
That is the problem, there is no rational explaination that shows why a spiritually perfect being does not overcome the flesh.
Jesus was spiritually perfect and overcame the flesh, we do not because we are not. Like I said, getting most Christians to admit that is hard, you will not find one instance in scripture describing us as spiritually perfect.
Being created in the image of God is not the answer because if being in the image of God means some aspect of perfection that is proved wrong by the very nature a human being has.
For those who are humbly seeking the truth (and I am not suggesting you aren't), the question is never "Did God really say...?" but rather "What does God mean by this?"
There are an abundance of scriptures which seem to claim or infer the innocent (note: not righteous) state of children. (a quick google search will yield sufficient evidence for the existence of these verses) These apparently conflicting scriptures must have some way of being reconciled, not so? Surely God didn't say that we are born both wicked and innocent?
Furthermore, a closer look into the origins of the official acceptance of the doctrine of original sin by 'the church so called', including the reasons it was accepted as orthodox, and some of the practices that were reaped from the virtual canonization of this doctrine, warrant a closer look at what most of us, including myself, have grown up accepting without question. I believe an excellent question to ask on any question of controversy is: What did the early church fathers believe? And if at all possible to find that answer!!
Steph,
You have the uncanny ability to get right to the heart of the problem. You said it so well. Did God say we are both innocent and born with sin too? We know that can't be. So how do we get to the truth of the matter. Anyway, great post. Thanks.
Btw, did you get my second DM about musical instruments? I didn't hear back, so I wasn't sure.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This verse is the supposed proof text to show that we are born with sin. But if one examines it closely, it does not say that Adam's sin was passed on. To claim that it does is a gross misrepresentation of what the scripture says.
1. SIN entered the WORLD through Adam since he was the first to sin. No one sinned before him. He, Adam, introduced sin.
2. Spiritual death spread to all men because all men (not babies) sin. SPIRITUAL DEATH (not sin) passed upon all men and why? Because all have sinned. There you have the reason! Not because Adam sinned, but because WE ALL sin. This verse DOES NOT say that sin was passed on to all men.
3. The wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical death.
4. Physical death is not the result of our sin. If it were, none of us would live past our youth, or beyond when we know right from wrong. Physical death was decreed when Adam sinned.
Katie
Adam did not introduce sin into the world. Eve did that. Then, Adam as supposedly being the head of Eve, he blamed her when he could have told her to "knock it off" sort of thing and not sinned, and then he made excuses and blamed her.
That verse doesn't have to say that sin was passed to all men and women. However, will be fun to check bible to see if other verses or another verse says so because it is so, either way. Bible does say that curse? or curse of sin is passed to the what, fourth generation?
Well, I'm not sure you are correct about physical death. Not at all. I think it's both because clearly, I have witnessed my own health get better as I stopped denying some wrong attitude or behavior within myself and admitted something bad I had been doing or thinking. There truly is a coorelation because I am no way better than anyone else and this is true that I have experienced so very many times, and still do.
No, if physical death is a wage of sin it would not necessitate that we died in our youth. God is patient and not willing that any perish, so the fact that we don't often die young is testament to His loving patience, and not proof that physical death is not a wage of sin.
That is the problem, there is no rational explaination that shows why a spiritually perfect being does not overcome the flesh.
Jesus was spiritually perfect and overcame the flesh, we do not because we are not. Like I said, getting most Christians to admit that is hard, you will not find one instance in scripture describing us as spiritually perfect.
Being created in the image of God is not the answer because if being in the image of God means some aspect of perfection that is proved wrong by the very nature a human being has.
Okay, I see what you are saying. All I can say for sure is we are created in God's image. We know God is spirit, so I think being created in His image is referring to our spiritual selves. Can we agree on this much?
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For those who are humbly seeking the truth (and I am not suggesting you aren't), the question is never "Did God really say...?" but rather "What does God mean by this?"
There are an abundance of scriptures which seem to claim or infer the innocent (note: not righteous) state of children. (a quick google search will yield sufficient evidence for the existence of these verses) These apparently conflicting scriptures must have some way of being reconciled, not so? Surely God didn't say that we are born both wicked and innocent?
Furthermore, a closer look into the origins of the official acceptance of the doctrine of original sin by 'the church so called', including the reasons it was accepted as orthodox, and some of the practices that were reaped from the virtual canonization of this doctrine, warrant a closer look at what most of us, including myself, have grown up accepting without question. I believe an excellent question to ask on any question of controversy is: What did the early church fathers believe? And if at all possible to find that answer!!
I just want to add that I truly believe the only reason to examine doctrine, church history, etc, is not to prove a point... But to go deep into the heart of God. Only the cross is wooden, the gospel is not - but is a raging fire of passion and the very flexing of God's mighty muscles. To understand who God is and to know Him experientially and love Him is our goal.
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