The Gross Misrepresentation of Romans 5:12 (believe, scripture, sinned, Jesus)

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Okay, I see what you are saying. All I can say for sure is we are created in God's image. We know God is spirit, so I think being created in His image is referring to our spiritual selves. Can we agree on this much?

Yes, we seem to agree to that point.

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by Sunnysee

Adam did not introduce sin into the world. Eve did that. Then, Adam as supposedly being the head of Eve, he blamed her when he could have told her to "knock it off" sort of thing and not sinned, and then he made excuses and blamed her.

That verse doesn't have to say that sin was passed to all men and women. However, will be fun to check bible to see if other verses or another verse says so because it is so, either way. Bible does say that curse? or curse of sin is passed to the what, fourth generation?

Well, I'm not sure you are correct about physical death. Not at all. I think it's both because clearly, I have witnessed my own health get better as I stopped denying some wrong attitude or behavior within myself and admitted something bad I had been doing or thinking. There truly is a coorelation because I am no way better than anyone else and this is true that I have experienced so very many times, and still do.

No, if physical death is a wage of sin it would not necessitate that we died in our youth. God is patient and not willing that any perish, so the fact that we don't often die young is testament to His loving patience, and not proof that physical death is not a wage of sin.

Leave it to a guy to pass off the blame onto his mate. Some things just don't change do they?

I believe the wages of sin is spiritual death.

We all die physically whether we're good or bad. We die physically because of Adam's sin. We inherit the consequences of his and Eve's sin.

Blessings,

Kate

[Steph1980]

Originally Posted by Sunnysee

Adam did not introduce sin into the world. Eve did that. Then, Adam as supposedly being the head of Eve, he blamed her when he could have told her to "knock it off" sort of thing and not sinned, and then he made excuses and blamed her.

aside from the humour here, you raise an interesting point. My understanding is that Eve was deceived, whereas Adam (who received the command from God before Eve was even created) disobeyed God directly, therefore was the transgressor bearing more responsibility. 1 Tim 2:14... However, I do have to wonder what would have become of Eve if Adam had been faithful to God in spite of Eve's folly. Would God have created Eve 2.0?

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

Yes, we seem to agree to that point.

Yes! Unity!
So why do you think A & E chose to disobey?

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Yes! Unity!
So why do you think A & E chose to disobey?

I think the root cause was ignorance.

When I look at scripture I see that Adam and Eve were not really even aware they did anything wrong until after they ate of the fruit. Up to that point, they didn't really know any better.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Okay Twin, but why? Why did they choose evil?

I say it is because they were no different than us. Yes, they were created SPIRITUALLY perfect just as we are, but they had fleshly desires just like us.

Kate

Katie,
I don't know why it is hard for to realize that things fundamentally changed from before sin and after sin. Sin changed the relationship of everything to everything, everybody from everybody, from the created to the creator. It really doesn't matter why did since they did.

It's simply not true that we are SPIRITUALLY perfect.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Steph1980

For those who are humbly seeking the truth (and I am not suggesting you aren't), the question is never "Did God really say...?" but rather "What does God mean by this?"

There are an abundance of scriptures which seem to claim or infer the innocent (note: not righteous) state of children. (a quick google search will yield sufficient evidence for the existence of these verses) These apparently conflicting scriptures must have some way of being reconciled, not so? Surely God didn't say that we are born both wicked and innocent?

Furthermore, a closer look into the origins of the official acceptance of the doctrine of original sin by 'the church so called', including the reasons it was accepted as orthodox, and some of the practices that were reaped from the virtual canonization of this doctrine, warrant a closer look at what most of us, including myself, have grown up accepting without question. I believe an excellent question to ask on any question of controversy is: What did the early church fathers believe? And if at all possible to find that answer!!

For instance ....There are an abundance of scriptures which seem to claim or infer the innocent ?

[Steph1980]

Originally Posted by Sunnysee

Adam did not introduce sin into the world. Eve did that. Then, Adam as supposedly being the head of Eve, he blamed her when he could have told her to "knock it off" sort of thing and not sinned, and then he made excuses and blamed her.

That verse doesn't have to say that sin was passed to all men and women. However, will be fun to check bible to see if other verses or another verse says so because it is so, either way. Bible does say that curse? or curse of sin is passed to the what, fourth generation?

Well, I'm not sure you are correct about physical death. Not at all. I think it's both because clearly, I have witnessed my own health get better as I stopped denying some wrong attitude or behavior within myself and admitted something bad I had been doing or thinking. There truly is a coorelation because I am no way better than anyone else and this is true that I have experienced so very many times, and still do.

No, if physical death is a wage of sin it would not necessitate that we died in our youth. God is patient and not willing that any perish, so the fact that we don't often die young is testament to His loving patience, and not proof that physical death is not a wage of sin.

I have looked at this from a gazillion angles, and not to say that I have "arrived" by any means, but here is a summary of where I am at currently.... Please poke some constructive holes in this if you see shortcomings.....

1. Adam and Eve were created innocent ("good" which I understand in the Hebrew means well functioning, like the rest of God's beautiful creation).
2. If they were created perfect, they would have (by definition) not been able to sin
3. They were created neither mortal nor immortal but with free will, and in demonstrating faith towards God (by obeying His command), would ultimately determine for themselves the question of their mortality. By mortality I am talking about physical life/death.
4. Continued physical life depended on access to the tree of life. Spiritual life depended on faithful obedience.
5. In failing to demonstrate faith, a&e were banished from the garden and access to the tree of life - a consequence we have all in a sense inherited (though not genetically, but I guess you could say geographically)
6. In failing to demonstrate faith, they also died spiritually, a penalty they bore individually which is NOT inherited by their descendants. We all fall as Adam did, short of the glory of God!
7. In their fall, we did inherit other 'consequences' (besides physical death) such as the reality that we, unlike them, are born to sinful parents and into a sinful environment. The influences and temptations are multiplied!
8. Satan has become the ruler of this world, and all unregenerate are under his sway by "selling ourselves" into slavery through personal sin. His rulership has brought a curse including disease and death. I don't believe his authority is absolute on this earth.
9. God created our flesh weak on purpose!!! (even Jeus took on the weakness of human flesh and suffered temptation). God has always had in mind that we should rely on Him through faith in obedience.

What I don't have a theory on is what would have happened if Adam had obeyed... We can only imagine

Although I haven't quoted much scripture to support the above, I do have them handy and spent several months really thinking about this, reading up, challenging my presuppositions, and trying to deal with some of the problems and challenges we have with current ideas about what really happened on that fateful day.. Again, I don't claim that this is IT... And am interested in what you all think?

Ps: I know what Romans 5:12ff says and don't believe it teaches inherited guilt, so please don't refer me there thinking I haven't looked at that portion of scripture thoroughly.

[Steph1980]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

For instance ....There are an abundance of scriptures which seem to claim or infer the innocent ?

For instance, Jesus saying that the kingdom of heaven belonged to "such as these" and that we should "become like little children". In the case of this statement, we need to try and understand in what way we should become like little children? Some people suggest that this means that we should have the faith of little children. But last I checked, kids will believe pretty much anything you tell them without questioning it. So I don't think that's what Jesus meant.

Also, there is Ecclesiastes 7:29 which says that God has made man upright, but they have sought out many devices.

Romans 7:9 says that Paul was alive apart from the law, and then the commandment came alive, he sinned, and died [spiritual death i'm sure we can all agree].

There are several more, which I can provide, but suffice it to say that it is certainly not as cut and dried as quoting from Psalm 51 or 58 and calling it a day... it has to at least be ceded that there is some room for discussion on the issue.

[Steph1980]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Steph,

You have the uncanny ability to get right to the heart of the problem. You said it so well. Did God say we are both innocent and born with sin too? We know that can't be. So how do we get to the truth of the matter. Anyway, great post. Thanks.

Btw, did you get my second DM about musical instruments? I didn't hear back, so I wasn't sure.

Kate

Hello my friend I did get your DM! Thank you! I have been meaning to respond but all these other posts keep distracting me. hahaha I will most definitely be writing back to you! I appreciated your message.

Steph