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Your argument and conclusion assume that children inherit guilt...
I don't think that is what scripture tells us though. Scripture tells us: all sinned. All of us were present, scripture calls it being "in Adam", when Adam sinned. It's not really an age dependent thing as to whether or not we sinned.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
And, through that one act of sin, of which all partake "in Adam", the many (as in all) were made sinners.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I don't think that is what scripture tells us though. Scripture tells us: all sinned. All of us were present, scripture calls it being "in Adam", when Adam sinned. It's not really an age dependent thing as to whether or not we sinned.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
And, through that one act of sin, of which all partake "in Adam", the many (as in all) were made sinners.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Again, age is not a consideration in the text.
Hi Alabama, a few questions for you:
1. Is 1 Corinthians 15:22 talking about physical death or spiritual death in your understanding?
2. If spiritual death (ie: in Adam we are all made sinners), wouldn't it logically follow that in Christ all will be made spiritually alive, according to that verse?
3. You point out that in Rom 5, Paul says the "many" were made sinners. Why did you then say "as in all" which is not what the text says?
4. Would you agree that Romans 5:18-19 does not actually say how the many are made sinners or how condemnation spread (heredity, federal headship, etc, would need to be assumed by the reader)? The closest thing we have to an answer on the parallel of our sin and Adam's, and our resulting condemnation, is that we all did what he did (vs 12).
5. Why does verse 18 use "all/all" in reference to adam's/Jesus' actions leading to condemnation/justification for men? And then, why does verse 19 use "many/many" as though some people will be excluded from the groups in question in this verse (those made sinners and those made righteous).
I submit to you that in verse 18, condemnation and justification both need to be appropriated in some way. So, while it is true that Adam's sin LEADS TO condemnation for all men, nowhere in this verse does it specify HOW, and we can soundly infer from verse 12 that it needs to be appropriated by an act of volition - essentially following Adam's example. Similarly, Jesus' act of righteousness LEADS TO justification for all men (how? not without appropriation by an act of volition - faith!). The text does not say that Adam's sin secured condemnation for all people, nor that Jesus' act of righteousness secured justification for all people.
I've been pouring over this portion of scripture for some time now and hence my sort of "technical" line of questioning/reasoning. I hope you can forgive me for this post sounding sort of "wooden" as a result.
I am interested in your thoughts about this exegesis and it's implications.
Steph
Last edited by Steph1980; 01-18-2012 at 12:48 PM..
1. Is 1 Corinthians 15:22 talking about physical death or spiritual death in your understanding?
Both. Genesis reads, using a more literal translation (YLT):
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Quote:
2. If spiritual death (ie: in Adam we are all made sinners), wouldn't it logically follow that in Christ all will be made spiritually alive, according to that verse?
Of course it does. And that is exactly what will happen to all, as stated here:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Quote:
3. You point out that in Rom 5, Paul says the "many" were made sinners. Why did you then say "as in all" which is not what the text says?
Because the two terms are used interchangeably:
Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
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4. Would you agree that Romans 5:18-19 does not actually say how the many are made sinners or how condemnation spread (heredity, federal headship, etc, would need to be assumed by the reader)? The closest thing we have to an answer on the parallel of our sin and Adam's, and our resulting condemnation, is that we all did what he did (vs 12).
Actually it does say. It's in the text.
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5. Why does verse 18 use "all/all" in reference to adam's/Jesus' actions leading to condemnation/justification for men? And then, why does verse 19 use "many/many" as though some people will be excluded from the groups in question in this verse (those made sinners and those made righteous).
It doesn't really say anything about exclusion, per se. If there are exclusions, and I'm not saying there are, it may have to do with other beings (such as reprobate angels) in distinction from humanity.
Quote:
I submit to you that in verse 18, condemnation and justification both need to be appropriated in some way. So, while it is true that Adam's sin LEADS TO condemnation for all men, nowhere in this verse does it specify HOW, and we can soundly infer from verse 12 that it needs to be appropriated by an act of volition. Similarly, Jesus' act of righteousness LEADS TO justification for all men (how? not without appropriation by an act of volition - faith!). The text does not say that Adam's sin secured condemnation for all people, nor that Jesus' act of righteousness secured justification for all people.
Actually, that is what the text tells us (NOT however, what you posted in red). Can you post your text that says: "leads to"?
Regarding our justification by Christ:
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
To bear a persons sins (or iniquities) means to justify them, as Isaiah tells us, here:
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
That is how we are justified, by Christ's redemptive work in bearing our iniquities. That's the whole concept of the Gospel, the Good News.
Both. Genesis reads, using a more literal translation (YLT):
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Of course it does. And that is exactly what will happen to all, as stated here:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Because the two terms are used interchangeably:
Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
Actually it does say. It's in the text.
It doesn't really say anything about exclusion, per se. If there are exclusions, and I'm not saying there are, it may have to do with other beings (such as reprobate angels) in distinction from humanity.
Actually, that is what the text tells us (NOT however, what you posted in red). Can you post your text that says: "leads to"?
Regarding our justification by Christ:
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
To bear a persons sins (or iniquities) means to justify them, as Isaiah tells us, here:
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
That is how we are justified, by Christ's redemptive work in bearing our iniquities. That's the whole concept of the Gospel, the Good News.
Hi again,
Based on the context of 1 Cor 15, I would contend that physical death is in view (and physical resurrection). This verse does not state that Adam's sin causes our spiritual death, so the burden of proof is still with you.
"Many" and "all" are not used interchangeably in Romans 5:18-19 as you assert. You saying so to support your position does not make it so. The burden of proof on this one is still with you.
Where in the text, as you claim, does it state HOW condemnation spread and many are made sinners? ("by Adam" or "by one sin" does not explain the mechanism by which this happens)
The text does not explicitly state that there are exclusions to the groups of those who are "made sinners" and those who are "made righteous", but as you agreed, this is not at all unreasonable and I would go even farther to suggest that Paul doesn't just arbitrarily use "many" and "all". I find it remarkable that you cede that perhaps reprobate angels are excluded. What about those who haven't committed sin, like the babies which started this whole discussion
Jesus' act of righteousness does not secure justification for all, only for those who appropriate it. Adam's sin does not secure condemnation for all, only for those who appropriate it. I am no Greek scholar, but the word "made (constituted)" sinners is Kathistemi and means make, cause to be, bring about, bring to a certain place. This word contains no suggestion which forces one to assume that being made a sinner is a hereditary certainty, devoid of any willful participation by the subjects. And this makes sense when examining the whole text as a train of thought. Not all men are automatically declared righteous due to Jesus' act of righteousness. So, why would all men automatically be declared sinners thanks to Adam?
Sin is transgression of the law. Romans 7:9 talks about Paul's being alive before the law came in, he transgressed it, and he died. Kind of sounds like Adam all over again to me....
Your argument and conclusion assume that children inherit guilt and are born deserving condemnation. If this not so, judgment by the law and mercy in spite of sin are both moot. You'd need to first prove conclusively that babies are born sinful to establish your defense.
Best,
Stephanie
Stephanie,
"the soul that sins it shall die" Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekiel 18:20
How about you first prove conclusively that babies do not die physically and then you and I go around to cemeteries and look at infant graves and I'll prove that babies are born sinful.
Based on the context of 1 Cor 15, I would contend that physical death is in view (and physical resurrection). This verse does not state that Adam's sin causes our spiritual death, so the burden of proof is still with you.
I have no "burden" to prove anything. How could I? I'm not responsible for what you believe.
I did quote you Genesis, however. What do you think the term "dying, you shall die" means? Also, Adam is said to have died on the day he transgressed:
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Also, scripture tells us that we, being "dead", were by nature "children of wrath". What do you think the word "dead" means, here?
Eph 2:1 Also you--being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Eph 2:2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath--as also the others,
The nature of those who are born of Adam (Gen 5:3), is death, spiritual death. It also results in our physical death too.
Quote:
"Many" and "all" are not used interchangeably in Romans 5:18-19 as you assert. You saying so to support your position does not make it so. The burden of proof on this one is still with you.
Sure they are. And again, I have no burden to prove anything...lol. I can't make you believe:
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned;
Quote:
Where in the text, as you claim, does it state HOW condemnation spread and many are made sinners? ("by Adam" or "by one sin" does not explain the mechanism by which this happens)
Well, let's read the text:
Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
That's the mechanism, underlined in the text.
Now, please tell me where the text says, "it leads to"?
Quote:
The text does not explicitly state that there are exclusions to the groups of those who are "made sinners" and those who are "made righteous", but as you agreed, this is not at all unreasonable and I would go even farther to suggest that Paul doesn't just arbitrarily use "many" and "all". I find it remarkable that you cede that perhaps reprobate angels are excluded. What about those who haven't committed sin, like the babies which started this whole discussion
I have not said anything that would exclude infants. That is your assumption, not mine. Nor have I discussed "groups". If it is your assumption that exclusions are in the text, I gave you some "exclusions" to consider. I did say that age (as in infants) was not a factor of the texts, however.
Quote:
Jesus' act of righteousness does not secure justification for all, only for those who appropriate it.
You can believe that if you want. What we "appropriate" has no bearing on whether the Gospel is true. The Gospel is a proclamation of truth, regardless if one believes it or not. You simply do not believe what the Gospel proclaims. I think you've made that clear.
Quote:
Adam's sin does not secure condemnation for all, only for those who appropriate it. I am no Greek scholar, but the word "made (constituted)" sinners is Kathistemi and means make, cause to be, bring about, bring to a certain place.
It's basic meaning is to set over (or down), to stand over, to place over. The idea in Rom 5:19 is not so much to "make" a person a sinner. I don't believe God does that, but rather God declares them to be as such. God declares them to be transgressors, similar to how God declares someone to be righteous, as in the preceding verse. It's a declaration that has more to do with imputation (as in reckoning, accounting as such), rather than inheritance. That's how I see it in the text.
Quote:
This word contains no suggestion which forces one to assume that being made a sinner is a hereditary certainty, devoid of any willful participation by the subjects.
I'm not suggesting it is. We (all) sinned in Adam. That is what the text says. "for that" (or because) all did sin:
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Quote:
And this makes sense when examining the whole text as a train of thought. Not all men are automatically declared righteous due to Jesus' act of righteousness. So, why would all men automatically be declared sinners thanks to Adam?
Because the text says "for that" all did sin. It says it right in the text why they are declared as such.
Quote:
Sin is transgression of the law. Romans 7:9 talks about Paul's being alive before the law came in, he transgressed it, and he died. Kind of sounds like Adam all over again to me....
It wasn't that Paul was spiritually alive in Christ, but rather he was alive, apart from law, not knowing sin subjectively in his conscience.
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, the sin revived, and I died;
I only look at the posts from time to time, so I might not be prompt getting back to you...
Take care...
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-18-2012 at 04:50 PM..
"the soul that sins it shall die" Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekiel 18:20
How about you first prove conclusively that babies do not die physically and then you and I go around to cemeteries and look at infant graves and I'll prove that babies are born sinful.
"the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23
Hi twin, there is more than one plausible explanation for humanity's mortal state. Have you considered that the mortality of humanity may be thanks to Adam's sin in this way: he and Eve were driven out from the garden of Eden and denied access to the tree of life, together with their posterity. Adam's sin had consequences for humanity, just not necessarily the consequences you are assuming.
I have no "burden" to prove anything. How could I? I'm not responsible for what you believe.
I did quote you Genesis, however. What do you think the term "dying, you shall die" means? Also, Adam is said to have died on the day he transgressed:
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Also, scripture tells us that we, being "dead", were by nature "children of wrath". What do you think the word "dead" means, here?
Eph 2:1 Also you--being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Eph 2:2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath--as also the others,
The nature of those who are born of Adam (Gen 5:3), is death, spiritual death. It also results in our physical death too.
Sure they are. And again, I have no burden to prove anything...lol. I can't make you believe:
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned;
Well, let's read the text:
Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
That's the mechanism, underlined in the text.
Now, please tell me where the text says, "it leads to"?
I have not said anything that would exclude infants. That is your assumption, not mine. Nor have I discussed "groups". If it is your assumption that exclusions are in the text, I gave you some "exclusions" to consider. I did say that age (as in infants) was not a factor of the texts, however.
You can believe that if you want. What we "appropriate" has no bearing on whether the Gospel is true. The Gospel is a proclamation of truth, regardless if one believes it or not. You simply do not believe what the Gospel proclaims. I think you've made that clear.
It's basic meaning is to set over (or down), to stand over, to place over. The idea in Rom 5:19 is not so much to "make" a person a sinner. I don't believe God does that, but rather God declares them to be as such. God declares them to be transgressors, similar to how God declares someone to be righteous, as in the preceding verse. It's a declaration that has more to do with imputation (as in reckoning, accounting as such), rather than inheritance. That's how I see it in the text.
I'm not suggesting it is. We (all) sinned in Adam. That is what the text says. "for that" (or because) all did sin:
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Because the text says "for that" all did sin. It says it right in the text why they are declared as such.
It wasn't that Paul was spiritually alive in Christ, but rather he was alive, apart from law, not knowing sin subjectively in his conscience.
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, the sin revived, and I died;
I only look at the posts from time to time, so I might not be prompt getting back to you...
Take care...
Hi Alabama,
I'm sorry if you felt that I put responsibility for what I believe on your ability to prove your propositions, that is not what I felt is generally understood by the term "burden of proof".
I do find it interesting that you want to continue this discussion having already decided that I am a natural man and unable to discern spiritual things. If you're sure I can't discern spiritual things, why are you trying to persuade me? As you can see from my previous posts (both here and elsewhere on this forum), it is my intention to interact with the text and gain understanding. God's word, rightly divided, is life-giving.
Hi twin, there is more than one plausible explanation for humanity's mortal state. Have you considered that the mortality of humanity may be thanks to Adam's sin in this way: he and Eve were driven out from the garden of Eden and denied access to the tree of life, together with their posterity. Adam's sin had consequences for humanity, just not necessarily the consequences you are assuming.
Your ball ....
Stephanie,
There are no assumptions in cemeteries.
Just because you don't want or like the fact that death itself is proof ... then what can I say other than one can't force the obvious.
"The wages of sin is death ..... "
"The mind of sinful man is death .... "
"The sting of death is sin....."
"... sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death"
" ... each is to die for his own sin"
" .... death came to all men, because all sinned"
There is only one reason anybody of any age dies ....... sin.
Stephanie,
There are no assumptions in cemeteries.
Just because you don't want or like the fact that death itself is proof ... then what can I say other than one can't force the obvious.
"The wages of sin is death ..... "
"The mind of sinful man is death .... "
"The sting of death is sin....."
"... sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death"
" ... each is to die for his own sin"
" .... death came to all men, because all sinned"
There is only one reason anybody of any age dies ....... sin.
Hi twin, thanks for your reply. Does "death", "die", "dead" etc, always mean physically, in the Bible or is it reasonable to suppose there is a physical death and a spiritual death? I think it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that there are two types of death and not every scripture is speaking of physical death. It is also not necessary that they both have the same cause... Physical death brought about by Adam's sin, spiritual death brought about by our own personal transgression of the law. Also, how would you define sin other than as transgression of law? babies don't transgress the law do they?
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