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Stephanie,
There are no assumptions in cemeteries.
Just because you don't want or like the fact that death itself is proof ... then what can I say other than one can't force the obvious.
"The wages of sin is death ..... "
"The mind of sinful man is death .... "
"The sting of death is sin....."
"... sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death"
" ... each is to die for his own sin"
" .... death came to all men, because all sinned"
There is only one reason anybody of any age dies ....... sin.
Amen... Twin !!
Sin, no matter how one looks at it is nothing but a physical and spiritural death and very deceptive.....
It always will justify and find that loop hole to keep one into bondage to its snares of its lies !!
That is why narrow is the way unto life and board is the way of destruction.... people do not take it seriously....
I'm sorry if you felt that I put responsibility for what I believe on your ability to prove your propositions, that is not what I felt is generally understood by the term "burden of proof".
Placing "burdens" on others to prove scripture (or what they believe) is really not what I'm into. I'll discuss scripture but I really won't debate it as such, or place burdens on you. To place burdens on others is to be carnal minded. We're to bear our own, as well as others burdens, not place burdens.
Quote:
I do find it interesting that you want to continue this discussion having already decided that I am a natural man and unable to discern spiritual things. If you're sure I can't discern spiritual things, why are you trying to persuade me? As you can see from my previous posts (both here and elsewhere on this forum), it is my intention to interact with the text and gain understanding. God's word, rightly divided, is life-giving.
The natural man resides in all of us. When a person places burdens on others they do so by using the natural man. Thats obviously where the conversation was headed.
Take care...
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-19-2012 at 07:06 AM..
Placing "burdens" on others to prove scripture (or what they believe) is really not what I'm into. I'll discuss scripture but I really won't debate it as such, or place burdens on you. To place burdens on others is to be carnal minded. We're to bear our own, as well as others burdens, not place burdens.
The natural man resides in all of us. When a person places burdens on others they do so by using the natural man. Thats obviously where the conversation was headed.
Take care...
Hi Alabama, please don't feel burdened, and I certainly don't want to burden you as I stated before. It was just a term of expression to let you know that I couldn't agree with your point yet, and that I was looking for more evidence. I am open minded, believe you me. I appreciate the far-reaching ramifications of how a person interprets this Scripture. Not only that, but I think that how someone understands the events of Genesis 1-3 (which is tied up in this text) has probably the biggest impact on their theology than anything else.
All my best
Steph
PS: I will try to get to your last reply later when (if!) my toddler goes down for her nap.
Hi twin, thanks for your reply. Does "death", "die", "dead" etc, always mean physically, in the Bible or is it reasonable to suppose there is a physical death and a spiritual death? I think it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that there are two types of death and not every scripture is speaking of physical death. It is also not necessary that they both have the same cause... Physical death brought about by Adam's sin, spiritual death brought about by our own personal transgression of the law. Also, how would you define sin other than as transgression of law? babies don't transgress the law do they?
Stephanie,
There is a spiritual as well as physical death. Adam's sin brought about both the physical and spiritual death.
Spiritual death is not determined by the transgressions because as Paul points out even when there was no law, between Adam and Moses death still existed. All that the law does is increase the offenses .... in other words, the law just piles on.
Nobody starts life neutral or better towards God. "Sin" is the equilivent of an archer that shoots an arrow and who misses the exact middle of the bullseye. That imperfection is the "sin" that the Psalmist is speaking of in Psalm 51:5.
Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Genesis 6:5)
Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Psalm 51:5)
Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Romans 5:13)
Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Romans 3:10)
Do babies transgress the law? ... it's a moot point (Romans 3:23)
"the soul that sins it shall die" Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekiel 18:20
How about you first prove conclusively that babies do not die physically and then you and I go around to cemeteries and look at infant graves and I'll prove that babies are born sinful.
"the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23
Twin,
Babies don't die physically because they sin. Babies are incapable of sinning because they have no knowledge of good or evil. Babies die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin.
Spiritual death or separation from God occurs when a person who knows right from wrong commits sin.
The wages of sin is spiritual death. Death is separation. Sin separates us from God.
Stephanie,
There is a spiritual as well as physical death. Adam's sin brought about both the physical and spiritual death.
Spiritual death is not determined by the transgressions because as Paul points out even when there was no law, between Adam and Moses death still existed. All that the law does is increase the offenses .... in other words, the law just piles on.
Hi twin! Thanks for your reply once again. You bring up some interesting points! I have also considered your points ... Please hear me out on this as I try to explain what I think Paul is saying here...
Paul says in verse 13 that sin was in the world before THE Law was given. But sin is not counted where there is no law. His point here is that all people from Adam until the Law was given died spiritually, proving that there WAS a law they were transgressing... Just not the Law of Moses which had yet to be given.
This is a similar reasoning to when he raised the point elsewhere of Abraham being declared righteous BEFORE circumcision was given. Paul is trying to reinforce to the Jews and Gentiles that they are all on common ground. What he is not trying to establish is that people are born sinners. Paul is saying that whether you are under the Law or not, you've still transgressed and are therefore condemned/spiritually dead. You'll notice the subtle but important diffence between "the Law" and "law" in the text.
Romans 2:12-16 explains that Gentiles perish without the Law - why? Not because they are born condemned but because they have God's law written on their hearts and are transgressors of it. Therefore, whether a Jew under the Law or a Gentile (under the conscience's version of the same) as Romans 5v12 states, and so does Romans 3:22,23, all (as in both Jews and Gentiles) have transgressed God's law. This transgression earns the wages spoken of in Romans 6:23.
I have no "burden" to prove anything. How could I? I'm not responsible for what you believe.
I did quote you Genesis, however. What do you think the term "dying, you shall die" means? Also, Adam is said to have died on the day he transgressed:
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Also, scripture tells us that we, being "dead", were by nature "children of wrath". What do you think the word "dead" means, here?
Eph 2:1 Also you--being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Eph 2:2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath--as also the others,
The nature of those who are born of Adam (Gen 5:3), is death, spiritual death. It also results in our physical death too.
Sure they are. And again, I have no burden to prove anything...lol. I can't make you believe:
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned;
Well, let's read the text:
Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
That's the mechanism, underlined in the text.
Now, please tell me where the text says, "it leads to"?
I have not said anything that would exclude infants. That is your assumption, not mine. Nor have I discussed "groups". If it is your assumption that exclusions are in the text, I gave you some "exclusions" to consider. I did say that age (as in infants) was not a factor of the texts, however.
You can believe that if you want. What we "appropriate" has no bearing on whether the Gospel is true. The Gospel is a proclamation of truth, regardless if one believes it or not. You simply do not believe what the Gospel proclaims. I think you've made that clear.
It's basic meaning is to set over (or down), to stand over, to place over. The idea in Rom 5:19 is not so much to "make" a person a sinner. I don't believe God does that, but rather God declares them to be as such. God declares them to be transgressors, similar to how God declares someone to be righteous, as in the preceding verse. It's a declaration that has more to do with imputation (as in reckoning, accounting as such), rather than inheritance. That's how I see it in the text.
I'm not suggesting it is. We (all) sinned in Adam. That is what the text says. "for that" (or because) all did sin:
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Because the text says "for that" all did sin. It says it right in the text why they are declared as such.
It wasn't that Paul was spiritually alive in Christ, but rather he was alive, apart from law, not knowing sin subjectively in his conscience.
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, the sin revived, and I died;
I only look at the posts from time to time, so I might not be prompt getting back to you...
Take care...
Paul was alive meaning he wasn't spiritually dead. There can only be one time in Paul's life that he was alive before he died and that was when he was a child. Paul was alive spiritually, then he died spiritually when he learned right from wrong and went on to sin. Finally, Paul was made alive when he was born again.
Galatians 3:22 says "But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe."
Babies don't die physically because they sin. Babies are incapable of sinning because they have no knowledge of good or evil. Babies die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin.
Spiritual death or separation from God occurs when a person who knows right from wrong commits sin.
The wages of sin is spiritual death. Death is separation. Sin separates us from God.
Now what have I said that you disagree with?
Blessings,
Katie
Now what have I said that you disagree with?
The wages of sin is spiritual death
The wages of sin is death... and a wage is something earned
Babies don't die physically because they sin.
Babies die physically because of sin when fully grown leads to death.
Babies are incapable of sinning because they have no knowledge of good or evil.
Capability is a moot point when one is conceived in sin.
The wages of sin is death... and a wage is something earned
Babies don't die physically because they sin.
Babies die physically because of sin when fully grown leads to death.
Babies are incapable of sinning because they have no knowledge of good or evil.
Capability is a moot point when one is conceived in sin.
Even if they were conceived in sin, meaning their parents were sinners, where does it say the baby inherits the parents sin?
Twin, you're not still clinging to that.corrupt NIV interpretation are you?
You Friend,
Katie
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