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Old 04-26-2013, 06:22 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 619,342 times
Reputation: 120

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are free to believe what you wish. However, as has already been shown, the sixth seal judgement which takes place in the first half of the Tribulation is called 'the great day of their wrath' in Rev. 6:17 which is simply another way of saying 'the day of the Lord. It is a time of judgement.
Rev. 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, ''Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?''
While Matthew 24:29 mentions cosmic disturbances in which the sun, moon and stars darken when Christ returns, these same events (Rev. 6:12-13) are also mentioned in connection with the sixth seal judgment which is demonstrably shown to precede both the trumpet judgements and the bowl judgements, all of which take place during the Tribulation. Simply refer to Revelation chapter 8.

A darkening of the sun and the moon is also associated with the fourth trumpet judgement in Revelation 8:12.

As is seen then, cosmic disturbances which include a darkening of the sun and the moon and the stars are associated with the seal Judgements, the trumpet judgements, and with the return of the Lord.


My reference to the Tyndale Bible was strictly regarding the fact that it translated the word apostasia as 'departure'.

The Day of the Lord includes both the Tribulation and the return of Christ.



Zur, Daniel 8:23 does not refer to the future man of lawlessness. It is a reference to the rise of Antiochus IV Epiphanes who came to power in 175 B.C. toward the end of the period of the rule of the four kingdoms which arose after the death of Alexander the Great. After Alexander died his kingdom was divided between his four generals.

As far as 2 Thess. 2:7 goes, I will simply refer you once again (see post #95) to what the Bible Knowledge Commentary states and leave it at that.
The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatual) power to do this restraining. Some object to this being the Holy Spirit on the grounds that to katechon in 2 Thessalonians 2:6 is neuter (''what is holding back''). But this is no problem for two reasons: (a) The neuter is sometimes used of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-14). (b) In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 the words are masculine: ho katechón, the one who . . . holds it back. How does He do it? Through Christians, whom He indwells and through whom He works in society to hold back the swelling tide of lawless living. How will He be taken out of the way? When the church leaves the earth in the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way in the sense that His unique lawlessness-restraining ministry through God's people will be removed (cf. Gen. 6:3). The removal of the Restrainer at the time of the Rapture must obviously precede the day of the Lord. Paul's reasoning is thus a strong argument for the pre-tribulational Rapture; the Thessalonians were not in the Great Tribulation because the Rapture had not yet occurred. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, pg. 719]

Okay, I misunderstood what you were saying, but it still is not relevant to the fact that the church is being addressed in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, but is not mentioned or referred to until Revelation chapter 19 where it is referred to as the bride and is seen in heaven during the Tribulation.



The rapture of the church will occur before the Tribulation begins. The Tribulation is a period of judgement on the Jews and the unbelieving Gentile nations. It is not a judgement of the church. It has already been shown that Paul stated that the church was not destined for the wrath associated with the Day of the Lord which as shown begins with the Tribulation (1 Thess. 5:9).

The Church Age is an intercalation. The Age of Israel was interrupted between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel's prophecy. The Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel's prophesy. It is the conclusion to the Age of Israel. The 70th week will not and cannot begin until the Church Age is terminated with the rapture of the Church. It is a dispensational issue.


As I said, you have the right to believe what you want. However, a proper and unbiased understanding of the Scriptures reveals a pre-Tribulational rapture of the church, and that the Day of the Lord begins in the Tribulation.
The key to determine Pre-, Mid- or Post-trib is the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The problem for Pre-trib is that Mat 24 says it is after the Tribulation. Therefore they have to create other days of the Lord and other darkenings in the Tribulation. Rev 6:12 and Mat 24:29 are the same event, the context makes it clear, both happen bevor the coming of the Lord to rule and to pour out His wrath. Rev 8:12 is not the same. Only 1/3 is darkened. Another problem is that Jesus was not teaching in Mat 24 a secred second coming. Pre-Wrath has recogniced it and says we have to face the Antichrist. They shorten the 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation, the day of God`s wrath or the year of His vengeance as they say. It is actually the same as Post-trib, only the Great Tribulation is shortened.
Jesus gives us the sign of the darkening of sun,moon and stars after the Tribulation and then He comes in the clouds to be seen and gathers His elect (saints) from the earth and from heaven (Mark 13:27). Jesus is refering here to the Rapture. The problem for Pre-trib again it fits not into their doctrin, so they say the gathering are the Jews and Jesus is speaking to the Jews. To whom He should speak otherwise (by the way it says He spoke to His disciples), because He was send to Israel and not to the heathen. That He spoke to all believers is clear from Mark 13:37.
The issue of the wrath we differ in time again. I place the wrath as the final judgement when Jesus comes back (Rev 11:18) on the Day of the Lord and not in the Tribulation. I am also Pre-Wrath, but also Post-trib. Therefore our timeframe in Rev is also different, but I make no point from Rev.
The issue of the Church age would be a new thread, because it involves the plan with Israel. My final judgement of Pre-trib, why I cannot believe in it, there is to much created what I do not find in the bible, two second comings, two first resurrections, two last trumpets, two Raptures, two days of the Lord, two darkenings of the sun, two dispensations of grace, two days of the wrath of God, two plans of God to save Gentiles and Jews.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:13 AM
 
20,198 posts, read 15,531,914 times
Reputation: 7319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
The key to determine Pre-, Mid- or Post-trib is the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The problem for Pre-trib is that Mat 24 says it is after the Tribulation. Therefore they have to create other days of the Lord and other darkenings in the Tribulation. Rev 6:12 and Mat 24:29 are the same event, the context makes it clear, both happen bevor the coming of the Lord to rule and to pour out His wrath. Rev 8:12 is not the same. Only 1/3 is darkened. Another problem is that Jesus was not teaching in Mat 24 a secred second coming. Pre-Wrath has recogniced it and says we have to face the Antichrist. They shorten the 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation, the day of God`s wrath or the year of His vengeance as they say. It is actually the same as Post-trib, only the Great Tribulation is shortened.
Jesus gives us the sign of the darkening of sun,moon and stars after the Tribulation and then He comes in the clouds to be seen and gathers His elect (saints) from the earth and from heaven (Mark 13:27). Jesus is refering here to the Rapture. The problem for Pre-trib again it fits not into their doctrin, so they say the gathering are the Jews and Jesus is speaking to the Jews. To whom He should speak otherwise (by the way it says He spoke to His disciples), because He was send to Israel and not to the heathen. That He spoke to all believers is clear from Mark 13:37.
The issue of the wrath we differ in time again. I place the wrath as the final judgement when Jesus comes back (Rev 11:18) on the Day of the Lord and not in the Tribulation. I am also Pre-Wrath, but also Post-trib. Therefore our timeframe in Rev is also different, but I make no point from Rev.
The issue of the Church age would be a new thread, because it involves the plan with Israel. My final judgement of Pre-trib, why I cannot believe in it, there is to much created what I do not find in the bible, two second comings, two first resurrections, two last trumpets, two Raptures, two days of the Lord, two darkenings of the sun, two dispensations of grace, two days of the wrath of God, two plans of God to save Gentiles and Jews.
You are simply ignoring and rejecting everything which has been said in order to defend your post-Tribulational view.

You have been shown as clearly as it can be shown that the seal judgements (and that includes the 6th seal judgement) occur before the trumpet judgements, and that the trumpet judgements occur before the bowl judgements. You are trying to take the 6th seal judgement out of place and make it the same event as the event described in Matthew 24:29 which occurs after the Tribulation.

Revelation 8:12 is the fourth trumpet judgement and it describes the same kind of cosmic events as is found in the 6th seal judgement (Revelation 6:12-13) and which are associated with the return of the Lord as described in Matthew 24:19. The difference with the events in the fourth trumpet judgement is that the light of the sky is only reduced by 1/3rd.

Mark 13:27 is not a reference to the rapture of the church. When Christ returns, angels will be sent forth to gather from around the world the elect, both Jew and Gentile. This is completely different from the rapture of the church which is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Understand this. Paul stated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that the church is not destined for wrath. The context is clearly a reference to the Day of the Lord. That means that the church will not go through the Tribulation which despite your denial is the Day of the Lord. That means that the church will be taken off the earth before the Tribulation.

The mention of the Church Age is relevant because the Church Age terminates with the rapture of the church prior to the beginning of the Tribulation. I have already explained that the Church Age is an intercalation. The age of Israel was interrupted and put on hold between Daniel's 69th week and the 70th week and the Church Age runs its course in between the 69th and 70th week. The 70th week in which the Tribulation will occur will not begin until after the church is removed from the earth at the rapture.

As for your comment concerning ''two second comings, two first resurrections, two last trumpets, two Raptures, two days of the Lord, two darkenings of the sun, two dispensations of grace, two days of the wrath of God, two plans of God to save Gentiles and Jews,''

1.) There are not two second comings. The rapture of the church in which Christ comes for the church but does not set foot on the ground, but rather the church will meet the Lord in the air and then go into heaven with the Lord is a completely different event than is associated with His return at the end of the Tribulation.

2.) There are not two first resurrections. There is one first resurrection which takes place in phases or stages. The first resurrection simply refers to the resurrection of believers. Not that all believers will be resurrected at the same time. This should not be difficult to understand.

3.) There are not two last trumpets. It has already been shown that the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 doesn't even take place at the end of the Tribulation but rather occurs before any of the seven bowl judgements begin. The seventh trumpet occurs around the middle of the Tribulation and introduces the seven bowl judgements which are the most severe judgements of the Tribulation. The praise which is given by the loud voices and the 24 Elders when the seventh trumpet sounds is in anticipation of the Second coming of Christ and of the establishment of His kingdom on this earth.

The last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 simply refers to the last event of the Church Age and is not at all related to the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. It is seen in Revelation 4:1 that when John was told to 'come up here' into heaven, the voice was like that of a trumpet. This can be seen as a picture of the rapture of the church. Prior to the command to 'come up here', John's vision concerning the seven churches which represent the churches throughout the Church Age was from his standpoint of being on the earth. But now with the conclusion of the evaluation of Christ regarding the seven churches of Asia which again are representative of the Church Age John is transported not bodily, but in his vision, to heaven where he then is shown what must happen regarding the events which will follow the conclusion of the Church Age. The point being that the voice which told John to 'come up here' was like that of a trumpet.

4.) There are at least two events which can be described as a 'rapture'. There is the rapture of the church prior to the Tribulation (1 Thess. 4:14-18); there is the rapture of the two witnesses as recorded in Revelation 11:12. Both of these events refer to believers being taken up into heaven.

5.) There are in fact thee different periods when the sun will be darkened. These have already been listed.

6.) While God has always treated man in grace, there is only one dispensation of grace. That is the present Church Age.

7.) As has been mentioned, there were 'Days of the Lord' in the Old Testament. For example, God's judgement on the Northern kingdom at the hands of the Assyrians as mentioned in Amos 5:18-20 and God's judgement on Judah at the hands of the Babylonians as mentioned in Lamentations 1:12. And there will be a Day of the Lord associated with the destruction of the present heaven and earth after the end of the Millennium as mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10-12. And the Tribulation is likewise described as a Day of the Lord as is His Second Advent.

8.) God indeed has separate programs for Israel and the Church. But for both, salvation has always been through faith in the Messiah.


You need to decide if you are going to base your theology on what the Scriptures say, or if you are going to interpret Scripture to fit your theology.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:27 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 619,342 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are simply ignoring and rejecting everything which has been said in order to defend your post-Tribulational view.

You have been shown as clearly as it can be shown that the seal judgements (and that includes the 6th seal judgement) occur before the trumpet judgements, and that the trumpet judgements occur before the bowl judgements. You are trying to take the 6th seal judgement out of place and make it the same event as the event described in Matthew 24:29 which occurs after the Tribulation.

Revelation 8:12 is the fourth trumpet judgement and it describes the same kind of cosmic events as is found in the 6th seal judgement (Revelation 6:12-13) and which are associated with the return of the Lord as described in Matthew 24:19. The difference with the events in the fourth trumpet judgement is that the light of the sky is only reduced by 1/3rd.

Mark 13:27 is not a reference to the rapture of the church. When Christ returns, angels will be sent forth to gather from around the world the elect, both Jew and Gentile. This is completely different from the rapture of the church which is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Understand this. Paul stated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that the church is not destined for wrath. The context is clearly a reference to the Day of the Lord. That means that the church will not go through the Tribulation which despite your denial is the Day of the Lord. That means that the church will be taken off the earth before the Tribulation.

The mention of the Church Age is relevant because the Church Age terminates with the rapture of the church prior to the beginning of the Tribulation. I have already explained that the Church Age is an intercalation. The age of Israel was interrupted and put on hold between Daniel's 69th week and the 70th week and the Church Age runs its course in between the 69th and 70th week. The 70th week in which the Tribulation will occur will not begin until after the church is removed from the earth at the rapture.

As for your comment concerning ''two second comings, two first resurrections, two last trumpets, two Raptures, two days of the Lord, two darkenings of the sun, two dispensations of grace, two days of the wrath of God, two plans of God to save Gentiles and Jews,''

1.) There are not two second comings. The rapture of the church in which Christ comes for the church but does not set foot on the ground, but rather the church will meet the Lord in the air and then go into heaven with the Lord is a completely different event than is associated with His return at the end of the Tribulation.

2.) There are not two first resurrections. There is one first resurrection which takes place in phases or stages. The first resurrection simply refers to the resurrection of believers. Not that all believers will be resurrected at the same time. This should not be difficult to understand.

3.) There are not two last trumpets. It has already been shown that the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 doesn't even take place at the end of the Tribulation but rather occurs before any of the seven bowl judgements begin. The seventh trumpet occurs around the middle of the Tribulation and introduces the seven bowl judgements which are the most severe judgements of the Tribulation. The praise which is given by the loud voices and the 24 Elders when the seventh trumpet sounds is in anticipation of the Second coming of Christ and of the establishment of His kingdom on this earth.

The last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 simply refers to the last event of the Church Age and is not at all related to the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. It is seen in Revelation 4:1 that when John was told to 'come up here' into heaven, the voice was like that of a trumpet. This can be seen as a picture of the rapture of the church. Prior to the command to 'come up here', John's vision concerning the seven churches which represent the churches throughout the Church Age was from his standpoint of being on the earth. But now with the conclusion of the evaluation of Christ regarding the seven churches of Asia which again are representative of the Church Age John is transported not bodily, but in his vision, to heaven where he then is shown what must happen regarding the events which will follow the conclusion of the Church Age. The point being that the voice which told John to 'come up here' was like that of a trumpet.

4.) There are at least two events which can be described as a 'rapture'. There is the rapture of the church prior to the Tribulation (1 Thess. 4:14-18); there is the rapture of the two witnesses as recorded in Revelation 11:12. Both of these events refer to believers being taken up into heaven.

5.) There are in fact thee different periods when the sun will be darkened. These have already been listed.

6.) While God has always treated man in grace, there is only one dispensation of grace. That is the present Church Age.

7.) As has been mentioned, there were 'Days of the Lord' in the Old Testament. For example, God's judgement on the Northern kingdom at the hands of the Assyrians as mentioned in Amos 5:18-20 and God's judgement on Judah at the hands of the Babylonians as mentioned in Lamentations 1:12. And there will be a Day of the Lord associated with the destruction of the present heaven and earth after the end of the Millennium as mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10-12. And the Tribulation is likewise described as a Day of the Lord as is His Second Advent.

8.) God indeed has separate programs for Israel and the Church. But for both, salvation has always been through faith in the Messiah.


You need to decide if you are going to base your theology on what the Scriptures say, or if you are going to interpret Scripture to fit your theology.
OK, Mike, God bless you. Time will tell, who is right. If someone dies now in the Lord it will not matter, if he believed in Pre-, Mid-or Post-trib and when we will live and the Lord comes before the Tribulation and I am ready, it will also not matter and if a believer belongs to the 5 wise virgins he will also go through the Tribulation without harm. God is able as he saved 3 Jews through the fire and David in the den of the lions and Israel in Egypt during the plagues and provided for millons of people 40 years everything they needed in the wilderness, without buying or selling. The ark saved Noah through the flood. The same day when Lot went out of Sodom, God destroyed them all. Jesus is the Ark, our Saviour!
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:48 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
2,820 posts, read 2,750,890 times
Reputation: 1245
" clearly taught?"
really, if that was the case we would not have all the factions we have.
Jesus walked on water <----- That is clearly taught.
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