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Old 12-29-2011, 07:29 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
He would not have said what He said if was a part of the plot (same as in Noah's case).
Well, I believe that God is omniscient and sees beginning to end and that the prophecies had to be fulfilled. Again, if the rejection had not taken place the prophecy would not have been fulfilled according to God's plan. We know that Jesus died for all men, including those that perished in the flood and we know that all are to kneel before Him and swear allegiance to Him one day due to what is stated in the scriptures.

Quote:
MT 11:20 "Then began He to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:" He drew them as faithful creator but they did not repent. It proves that He did His job and in the end they can not say I did not know."
Didn't God already know that they wouldn't repent, though?
God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-29-2011 at 07:49 PM..
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:43 PM
 
Location: NC
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Genesis 3:9 God asks Adam, "Where are you?" Didn't God really know where Adam was?
Genesis 4:9,10 God asks Cain, "Where is Abel, your brother?" Didn't God really know where Abel was?


God bless.
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Well, I believe that God is omniscient and sees beginning to end and that the prophecies had to be fulfilled. Again, if the rejection had not taken place the prophecy would not have been fulfilled according to God's plan.
So you are saying that prophecy became before disobedience?
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:20 PM
 
Location: NC
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The prophecies of Jesus being rejected by His own people? God bless.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Well, I believe that God is omniscient and sees beginning to end and that the prophecies had to be fulfilled. Again, if the rejection had not taken place the prophecy would not have been fulfilled according to God's plan. We know that Jesus died for all men, including those that perished in the flood and we know that all are to kneel before Him and swear allegiance to Him one day due to what is stated in the scriptures.



Didn't God already know that they wouldn't repent, though?
God bless.
Of coarse He knows but being the faithful creator He had to open the door for all. God does not preempt the ability for all to have an opportunity. What kind of a monster would He be then?
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
So you are saying that prophecy came before disobedience?
What did God mean when he said, "You shall surely die?"
And when did he say this, beforehand or after?
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:53 PM
 
Location: NC
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These scriptures point to His rejection by His people:

"Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
"He is despised and rejected by men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him. He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. Yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted." (Isaiah 53:1-4)

"But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: 'Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?' Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'" (John 12:37-40)


And Peter tells us in Acts 2 (caps from the translation)

14 But Peter, [o]taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. 15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the [p]third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17 ‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL [q]MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
19 ‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
20 ‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
21 ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’


22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man [r]attested to you by God with [s]miracles and wonders and [t]signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of [u]godless men and put Him to death. 24 [v]But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [w]agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [x]in its power.

God bless.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:58 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
Of coarse He knows but being the faithful creator He had to open the door for all. God does not preempt the ability for all to have an opportunity. What kind of a monster would He be then?

Garya123, does He open the door for all if He already knows that they will not come to Him? Like I posted before, if someone digs a pit and tells someone that they don't want the person to fall into the pit, but already knows that the person will fall into the pit even as they are digging the pit, are they really giving the person an opportunity to escape from falling into the pit? God bless.
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Good post, and good thread.
Thanks Finn.
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:31 PM
 
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Shana, I see that you have posted this three times. This post, and posts #82 and 87. I will answer here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi, this is a contradiction. How is everyone then being given an opportunity when He already knows that they will not choose Him before He created them?
Why cannot He not violate the free will of man. He has done this as recorded in the scriptures.
There is no contradiction in man's volition and either God's omniscience or His sovereignty. By God's decree man's volition co-exists with His sovereignty. God desires that man come to Him of his own choice. This is in keeping with both His plan to bring many sons into glory and to resolve the angelic conflict in which man's volition is the most basic issue.

As I said in posts #11 and #19 and will expand upon a bit here, God's omniscience from the neverending expanse of eternity past knew all that is knowable which includes not only all that comprises reality, but everything which might have become reality had choices other than those which have been made had been made but weren't.

Knowing from eternity past the actual volitional choices that man would make in human history, God then decreed that those decisions would take place. Nothing which exists can exist apart from God decreeing its actuality. But the decree of God does not cause the volitional decision, it simply acknowledges it and makes it certain. Knowing in advance how every member of the human race would use his volition God made it possible for those volitional choices to become reality.

The foreknowledge of God is that category of God's knowledge which is concerned only with the actual - that which is reality. God has self knowledge concerning Himself, omniscience which involves creation, and foreknowledge which is concerned only with that which has been decreed by God based upon His omniscience.

In God's mind, His omniscience, the divine decrees and foreknowledge are all simultaneous. But in attempting to understand what is involved, it is necessary to put them into a logical sequence. God's foreknowledge is based upon His decrees (one big decree) which is based upon His omniscience.

The fact that God knew in advance how man would decide does not forbid man's volition, but make man's volition possible.

In post #49, I provided a link to a study presented by Pastor William Wenstrom in which he goes into detail on how God's omniscience, decrees, foreknowledge and man's volition are related in God's plan. I present that study again here ---> http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/wr...ne_decrees.pdf I hope you will take the time to go into it and try to understand it.


Quote:
Romans 9:18
"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
Shana, God does not arbitrarily harden anyones heart without regarding their volition. Pharoah had first hardened his own heart before God is said to have hardened it. God hardened Pharoah's heart in the sense of presenting Pharoah with a situation which God knew would initiate a negative reaction from Pharoah. In other words, Pharoah simply hardened his own heart in opposition to God's commands to let His people go.

In Exodus 4:21 and 7:3, God told Moses that he would harden Pharoah's heart.

Ex 7:13, 14, 22, 8:19, 9:7, 9:35 say only that Pharoah's heart was hardened.

Ex. 8:15, 32, and 9:34 say that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

Ex 9:12, 10:1, 20, 27, 11:10, and 14:4, 8 say that God hardened Pharoah's heart.

Pharoah is directly said twice to have hardened his own heart (Ex 8:15, 32) Before it is said that God hardened his heart (Ex 9:12).

The fact is that it was Pharoah who hardened his own heart in every instance. God simply brought about the situation by which Pharoah chose to exercise negative volition.

Pharoah could have simply obeyed the command to let the people go but God had always known that he would not. But God had given him the opportunity to obey.

Quote:
He is to subject all things to Himself?

Hebrews 2:
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
God carries out His plan using both the positive and negative volition of man to accomplish His purpose without violating man's volition. God's enemies will be subjected as defeated enemies who will spend eternity future in the lake of fire.

This in no way supports Universalism which I have asked you not to bring up in this thread as that is not the topic.


Quote:
God can violate man's free will, because He has all power and it is His will that will be done, not ours, not what is believed to be man's free will. God's will is not subservient to our will.


Ephesians 1:
9 He [j]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 (NAS)


The scriptures say that one who commits sin is a slave to sin, so where is free will here? God bless.
Shana, God at times overrules mans choices but does so without violating his volition. What I mean is that God does not prevent a person from desiring to do something, while still preventing him from actually carrying out his desire.

God can manipulate circumstances to prevent a desire from being carried out. But that does not negate the fact that the person can choose from his volition to desire to do something. Or to desire not to do something. God doesn't prevent the desire, though He may prevent the desire from being carried out. Thus the voliition is not violated.

Some time back I did a couple of threads concerning man's volition which you can refer to.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...l-freewill.htm ---> God's Overruling, Directive, and Permissive Will; and the freewill of man

Man's Free Will related to God's Sovereignty and the Divine Decrees

Man truly has volition. The ability to make a choice. And as it relates to the gospel, that choice has eternal ramifications.
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