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Old 12-26-2011, 11:17 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi, I believe that they were unwilling, but this was a part of God's plan. John 6:65 says that no one could come to Him, unless the Father granted this. God knows who will come and who won't since, He knows all things. We don't know all things and neither do we understand all of His ways. If you say, He saves those who He knows will choose Him, then He chose them first before they believed, because He already knew in the beginning when He brought all in to existence. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-26-2011 at 11:50 AM..
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:29 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,823 posts, read 9,816,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, the following three verses show that a decision can be made with regard to the call of God through the gospel message.

Revelation 22:17 ''...And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

John 7:37 ''...If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38] He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' ''

You can also choose not to come to Christ as seen in John 5:40 'and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

That decision is based on an acceptance or a rejection of the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) at the point of gospel hearing (Rom 10:11-15) by which means God calls (2 Thess 2:14) and extends the invitation (John 7:37; Rev 22:17).
Revelation 22:17 and John 7:37 are the truth when taken into correct understanding that we are like Lydia whom:
One of those listening was a woman named Lydia,.... The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

It still is a matter of who it is that takes credit for it; "The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message." ... It's not by human will or intuition.

However, scripture teaches (as you correctly state) that a person does chose to be unwilling to believe or reject.
Yes that maybe not reasonable to the human intellect wisdom how one can't chose to accept the truth but it can chose to reject the truth.....
but since when does God require for one to "lean on your own understanding"
Job 38:36
Who endowed the heart with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind ?

Is faith a gift from God or a gift from man's intellect and chosing?
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

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Old 12-26-2011, 12:09 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,820,436 times
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Paul also speaks of God hardening and binding people over to disobedience for His purposes. This His work:

Romans 11
I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
7 What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: 8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.

and


29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
30 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,
31 even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.
32 For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

God bless.
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
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Try to remember that one Bible verse does not nulify another. God is not at war with Himself in the Bible. Certainly it is true that God invites all to be saved. Jesus wants the Gospel to reach all nations, all peoples everyone. But it is also true that those who convert cannot claim any righteousness for themselves, in the sense that they are any better than anyone else. Scripture teaches many times that those who did convert to Christianity only did so because of God's activity in their life. They were predestined before the creation of the world to be saved. God called them through the word. They were converted by the word and the work of the HOly Spirit, and they are preserved in their faith because of the word and the work of the HOly Spirit. IMHO, the doctrine of Predestination is taught in the Bible because God wants us to know that it is totally by his grace and mercy that we have been saved, not something in us, so that all the Glory and credit goes to God alone, as it should be.
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:09 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,820,436 times
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All glory and credit does belong to God from whom all things originate. I do believe that some are created to be vessels of honor and some are vessels of dishonor in this life, according to God's purpose, yet in the end, God chooses all to be restored to Him and all will eventually choose Him. God bless.
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:19 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,244,521 times
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Man Can and Must Choose to believe on Christ in order to be eternally saved.

Are your really so out of touch with your own person to think that anyone can "choose" to believe anything, especially when the concept of that belief is so clearly and utterly impossible?

Regardless of the belief, be it about a god, or anything else that is not and cannot be supported by evidence, even vague evidence, I guess would considered as self-induced delusion.

Choosing to believe is to be untrue to the one person you should never be untrue to, yourself.
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:32 PM
 
299 posts, read 210,608 times
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@Mike555
"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 The law he is referencing is not OT law but is a law that has been added to the law by Jesus' crucifixion and ascension. "For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. You can get into somebody else's church by not obeying any law, but you will not be added to His church unless you have the faith to obey a law that has been added to the law.
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:24 PM
 
1,116 posts, read 991,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God chooses based on His foreknowlege of who would believe on Christ. No one believes because they were chosen by God. They are chosen because in eternity past God knew that they would have positive volition toward Christ in response to the Gospel.

Whereas the omniscience of God knew from eternity past every alternative to history which might have been, God's foreknowledge is concerned with the actual.

God's foreknowledge makes nothing certain but simply acknowledges what is certain. God's decree's, actually one decree which takes in all of reality makes certain what His omniscience perceived in eternity past. God knew each and every decision that man would make and therefore decreed that it certainly would take place. God's decrees merely acknowledge man's volition.

While in the mind of God it is all simultaneous, it has to be considered in logical sequence. Omniscience comes first, then the decree, and then foreknowledge. The decree is based on omniscience and foreknowledge is based on the decree.

God chose or elected believers in the sense first, that, if given volition, they would freely choose to believe on Christ; second, that He decreed that such an act would actually occur; third, that He agreed not only that their positve volition to the gospel would occur at a certain point of time but also that all the blessings of salvation including rewards given at the judgment seat of Christ would be their eternal possession (Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13).

Believers were chosen from eternity past simply because God knew that they would come to Christ from their own positive volition in response to the gospel. And based on His omniscience, simply made that positive volition a certainty by including it in His divine decrees. God's decrees do not affect man's volition, but simply make certain what man decides from his own volition.

In other words, you do not believe on Christ because you were chosen, but rather, you were chosen because you believe.

God desires that all men be saved, and does not desire that anyone perish. God therefore chooses all who of their own volition come to Christ.

The church is chosen or has its own election, while Israel has its election related to the unconditional covenants or promises of God to them (the regenerate Jew).
John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

God grants belief to whoever he wants based on his own purposes and mercy. The above verse shows that for those who do not believe, it is because (due to the fact that) we are not of god's sheep. It doesn't say that we are not of god's sheep because we do not believe. Quite the opposite.

Acts 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.

Philippians 1:29 Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

"
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." --John 6:44


"For by grace are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8, 8)


*In case of any confusion, and any persisting doubt that we do in fact believe BY GRACE, consider this verses-
"And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much WHICH HAD BELIEVED THROUGH GRACE." (Acts 18:27)


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Old 12-26-2011, 03:24 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,654,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi, I believe that they were unwilling, but this was a part of God's plan. John 6:65 says that no one could come to Him, unless the Father granted this. God knows who will come and who won't since, He knows all things. We don't know all things and neither do we understand all of His ways. If you say, He saves those who He knows will choose Him, then He chose them first before they believed, because He already knew in the beginning when He brought all in to existence. God bless.
Yes. But believers were chosen because God knew beforehand that they would believe. Their belief is not the result of having been chosen, they were chosen because they believe. God grants that all who wish may come to Him. God desires that all men be saved and is not willing that any should perish. God initiates contact with man through the call of the gospel and man can say 'yes' or he can say 'no.'

God does indeed have a predetermined plan as stated in Acts 2:23. And that predetermined plan takes full cognizance of man's God given volition.

God's plan is to both bring many sons into glory and to resolve the angelic conflict. The angel commonly called Lucifer made a volitional decision to rebel against God. He then persuaded one third of the angels to rebel with him. As a result he was sentenced to eternity in the lake of fire. But the sentence will not be carried out until the end of human history. Satan probably made the same objection that so many people make today - how can a loving God sentence his creatures to the lake of fire. God could have just immediately banished Satan and the fallen angels to the lake of fire, but instead chose to demonstrate to all of creation that His decision was perfectly fair.

God created man lower than the angels but having volition in common with the angels. The ability to choose for or against God. When even one member of the human race chooses for God in response to the gospel it demonstrates that the angels who rebelled were without excuse. The angels had been in the presence of God. They had seen Him in all His glory. Man on the other hand had never seen God as the angels had.

When Satan deceived the woman and through her caused Adam to disobey God resulting in spiritual death, he thought that he had won his case against God. But instead, God had always known that Adam would disobey Him, and his disobedience simply advanced God's predetermined plan.

God immediately condemned Adam, and then made the promise of a Savior who would come. Adam believed the promise as did Eve, and they were eternally saved at that point. But because Adam was the federal head of the human race, when he sinned the entire human was was condemned with him. But God did this in grace. The principle is that condemnation must precede salvation. Adam's relationship with God before the fall depended upon Adam's continual obedience. As long as he obeyed God's one command to not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil Adam maintained his perfection in the sight of God. When he sinned he died spiritually and was condemned. Once condemned he was in a position to enter into an eternal relationship with God based upon faith in the coming Messiah.

Thereafter, everyone who is born is born spiritually dead and in need of eternal salvation. Instead of coming into the world in a relationship with God which would be broken the moment they sinned, everyone is born already separated from God and in a position to simply enter into an unbreakable eternal relationship with God based on the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Man's God given volition is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict. And God absolutely does not coerce anyone to believe on Christ. Each person must make his own decision.

Based on God's prior knowledge pertaining to who would believe in Christ, He chose or elected them.
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:29 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,654,940 times
Reputation: 7415
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Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Revelation 22:17 and John 7:37 are the truth when taken into correct understanding that we are like Lydia whom:
One of those listening was a woman named Lydia,.... The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paulís message.

It still is a matter of who it is that takes credit for it; "The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paulís message." ... It's not by human will or intuition.

However, scripture teaches (as you correctly state) that a person does chose to be unwilling to believe or reject.
Yes that maybe not reasonable to the human intellect wisdom how one can't chose to accept the truth but it can chose to reject the truth.....
but since when does God require for one to "lean on your own understanding"
Job 38:36
Who endowed the heart with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind ?

Is faith a gift from God or a gift from man's intellect and chosing?
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

The issue, the point of this thread is not who gets credit for man's salvation even though it has been made clear that God gets the credit.

The issue is that man does not believe because he was chosen, but that those who are chosen are chosen because God knew that they would believe.
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