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Old 12-26-2011, 03:30 PM
 
Location: NC
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Mike, what I was trying to share is that God knows all things anyway and if you believe that he chose to save those who would choose Him, then He in fact chose them anyway before they chose Him because He knows all things anyway, right? Even their choosing of Him is from Him. " From from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things (Romans 11) . We don't understand His ways, but He is actively influencing the wills of men. I do believe that God will influence every person to come to Him eventually. He will subject all to Himself. Subject, means some kind of force. It is right there in the scriptures and I believe that this means that He will convince all of their need for Him. Did God do some kind of convincing where Paul was concerned, Paul who describes himself as the chiefest of sinners? What do you say of the scripture the passages in Romans that were shared? God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-26-2011 at 03:57 PM..
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cxjonz View Post
@Mike555
"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 The law he is referencing is not OT law but is a law that has been added to the law by Jesus' crucifixion and ascension. "For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. You can get into somebody else's church by not obeying any law, but you will not be added to His church unless you have the faith to obey a law that has been added to the law.
Not the issue being addressed in this thread. The issue is that God chose in eternity past those who He knew from eternity past would believe in Christ during their life on earth.

Last edited by Mike555; 12-26-2011 at 04:04 PM..
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
Try to remember that one Bible verse does not nulify another. God is not at war with Himself in the Bible. Certainly it is true that God invites all to be saved. Jesus wants the Gospel to reach all nations, all peoples everyone. But it is also true that those who convert cannot claim any righteousness for themselves, in the sense that they are any better than anyone else. Scripture teaches many times that those who did convert to Christianity only did so because of God's activity in their life. They were predestined before the creation of the world to be saved. God called them through the word. They were converted by the word and the work of the HOly Spirit, and they are preserved in their faith because of the word and the work of the HOly Spirit. IMHO, the doctrine of Predestination is taught in the Bible because God wants us to know that it is totally by his grace and mercy that we have been saved, not something in us, so that all the Glory and credit goes to God alone, as it should be.
The issue of who gets credit for believing in Christ (God gets the credit) is not the point being addressed in this thread. The only thing being addressed here is that the reason God chooses or elects believers is because He knew beforehand that they would believe in Christ.

No one believes because they were chosen to believe. They are chosen (were chosen in eternity past) because they believe in time.

God certainly initiates contact with fallen man. God calls through the gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts at the point of gospel hearing. Having heard and understood the gospel message, a person can place his faith in Christ or he can resist the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry.

No one was predestined to believe in Christ. Those who God Knew beforehand would have positive volition toward the gospel were therefore predestined from eternity past. It's a matter of putting the horse in front of the cart instead of putting the cart in front of the horse. And I say that with 2 Thess 2:13 in mind. Election is from eternity past. Predestination is from eternity past. And the believers election and predestination are based on God foreknowledge which is based on His decree, which is based on His omniscience.

I'll put it like this. The believer's positive volition is not based on having been predestined. His having been predestined is based on his positive volition toward Christ.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:00 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
God desires that all men be saved and is not willing that any should perish.
Mike, do you believe that this verse that you shared, contradicts the belief that God saves them who choose Him, when He knows all things? If He knows that He will only choose those who choose Him, what of the others that He desires to come to a knowledge of the truth? They are consigned to eternal death, when He knew all along that they would not be ones that would choose Him? He knows that all will not come but He desires that they come? It's a contradiction. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-26-2011 at 04:10 PM..
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Mike, do you believe that this verse that you shared, contradicts the belief that God saves them who choose Him, when He knows all things? If He knows that He will only choose those who choose Him, what of the others that He desires to come to a knowledge of the truth? They are consigned to eternal death, when He knew all along that they would not be ones that would choose Him. He knows that all will not come but He desires that they come? It's a contradiction. God bless.
Shana, refer to post #29 where I described why God created man. As I said there, man's volition is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict.

God does not desire that any man perish, and He desires that all men be saved, but He will not violate man's God given volition. To do so would invalidate the very reason He created man. All who refuse to come to Jesus Christ for salvation have chosen the wrong side in the angelic conflict and will suffer the same punishment as the fallen angels (Matthew 25:41; Rev 20:10-15).
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:14 PM
 
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JN 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me. The drawing is to all men at various times to give all an opportunity but many reject to favor the praise of man rather than the praise of God.
REV 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

The only times that God hardens the heart is not out a whim of His but because of one rejecting the truth.
JN 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
JN 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:46 PM
 
1,116 posts, read 990,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
JN 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me. The drawing is to all men at various times to give all an opportunity but many reject to favor the praise of man rather than the praise of God.
REV 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

The only times that God hardens the heart is not out a whim of His but because of one rejecting the truth.
JN 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
JN 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."
John 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (Nobody can come of their own volition)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (This does not say that the father gives them an opportunity to choose to reject him. It says that ALL will come.)

John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. (The son only reveals the father to those given to him out of the world.....not all people in the world)

John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:53 PM
 
Location: NC
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Mike, what of the scriptures that I posted?



Quote:
JN 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will *draw all men unto Me.
*draw=helkuo=to drag.

Thanks for sharing your understanding, Garya123. I believe that Jesus is saying that He will draw/drag all men to Himself. Some may resist Him now, according to the plan of God, but in the end all will be made subject to Him, as He was sent to be the Savior of the world and the purpose of God will be fulfilled in Him. God who will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. God bless.

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-26-2011 at 05:05 PM..
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Old 12-26-2011, 07:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mythunderstood View Post
John 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (Nobody can come of their own volition)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (This does not say that the father gives them an opportunity to choose to reject him. It says that ALL will come.)

John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. (The son only reveals the father to those given to him out of the world.....not all people in the world)

John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Mythunderstood, Everyone can only come to Christ by their own volition in response to the call of the gospel. To understand John 6:37 simply refer to John 6:44-45.

John 6:44 ''No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.45] ''It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.''

This refers to the drawing of God. This drawing consists of the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) at the point of gospel hearing. Yet the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51). The Holy Spirit does not speak of His own initiative but speaks only what He had heard (John 16:13-15).

God the Father is the author of the predetermined plan (Acts 2:23). In accordance with that plan it was decided that the Third Person of the trinity would be the one who does the actual drawing through His convicting ministry(John 16:8-11).

God initiates the call through the gospel. The Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, of righteousness, and of judgment. If the hearer of the gospel responds, if he learns what he is being taught, and does not resist the drawing of God then he will come to Christ. The Father gives to Christ all who respond to the Gospel.

The 'all' who the Father gives to Christ are those who do not resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit at gospel hearing. They are the ones who come to Christ.

John 6:40 says ''For this is the will (theléma - prefered will, wish, desire) of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him on the last day.

God makes it possible to come to Christ, but man must make a volitional choice in response to the gospel in order to be saved.

And again, God knew in eternity past who would come to Christ for salvation and elected them from eternity past.

He also knew who would not come to Christ for salvation. And they will share the punishment of the fallen angels (Matthew 25:41, Rev 20:10-15).
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Old 12-26-2011, 07:32 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Mike, what of the scriptures that I posted?



*draw=helkuo=to drag.

Thanks for sharing your understanding, Garya123. I believe that Jesus is saying that He will draw/drag all men to Himself. Some may resist Him now, according to the plan of God, but in the end all will be made subject to Him, as He was sent to be the Savior of the world and the purpose of God will be fulfilled in Him. God who will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. God bless.

God bless.
Shana, the 'all' mentioned by Christ (John 12:32) does not refer to every individual, but to men of every nationality and every race. Both Jews and Gentiles are included. Greeks - Gentiles were present (John 12:20) when Jesus said this.

Jesus had previously stated that all men would not be saved. In John 5:28 Jesus said ''Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29] and shall come forth; those who did the good to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil to a resurrection of judgment.

The definition of helkó - 'drawing' is as follows...

HELP'S Word-studies
1670 helkýō – properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.

Strong's Concordance

Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe

Strong's Greek: 1670. ????? (helkó) -- to drag

The Holy Spirit seeks to persuade in His convicting ministry at gospel hearing. But the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).


Shana, I prefer not to get into a discussion about Universalism. That's not the purpose of the thread.

Last edited by Mike555; 12-26-2011 at 07:45 PM..
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