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Old 12-27-2011, 03:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Mythunderstood, Everyone can only come to Christ by their own volition in response to the call of the gospel. To understand John 6:37 simply refer to John 6:44-45.

John 6:44 ''No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.45] ''It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.''

This refers to the drawing of God. This drawing consists of the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) at the point of gospel hearing. Yet the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51). The Holy Spirit does not speak of His own initiative but speaks only what He had heard (John 16:13-15).

God the Father is the author of the predetermined plan (Acts 2:23). In accordance with that plan it was decided that the Third Person of the trinity would be the one who does the actual drawing through His convicting ministry(John 16:8-11).

God initiates the call through the gospel. The Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, of righteousness, and of judgment. If the hearer of the gospel responds, if he learns what he is being taught, and does not resist the drawing of God then he will come to Christ. The Father gives to Christ all who respond to the Gospel.

The 'all' who the Father gives to Christ are those who do not resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit at gospel hearing. They are the ones who come to Christ.

John 6:40 says ''For this is the will (theléma - prefered will, wish, desire) of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him on the last day.

God makes it possible to come to Christ, but man must make a volitional choice in response to the gospel in order to be saved.

And again, God knew in eternity past who would come to Christ for salvation and elected them from eternity past.

He also knew who would not come to Christ for salvation. And they will share the punishment of the fallen angels (Matthew 25:41, Rev 20:10-15).
Very well said and very true! This is why also that all will not be saved. Even though God foreknows who will receive yet He draws all men to give them that choice. Only by this can He be called a just God who cares for all and gives all an opportunity. Only those who respond does He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son because because He only has power to change those who give Him permission to do so. He can not violate the the free will of man because love would not be love without the exchange of the will. His will to us and us to Him. Jesus said deny yourself and give up your own life for Gods higher life.

Last edited by garya123; 12-27-2011 at 04:06 PM..
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Old 12-27-2011, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Default Man Can and Must Choose to believe on Christ in order to be eternally saved.

...Amen !
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Shana, God does desire that all men be saved, and does not desire that anyone perish. But God gave man volition so that man could choose for or against Him. That is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict. God will not impose His sovereign will on the negative volition of man. God's desire is that all men be saved, but He has to respect the negative volition of those who reject Christ.

Because Lucifer used his volition against God, the issue is what man will do with his volition. Will he come to Christ for salvation, or will he reject God's provision for salvation? Man must accept the consequences of his decision. If he dies never having received God's gift of salvation through faith alone in Christ alone, then he will suffer the same punishment as Satan and his angels

The fact that God desires that all men be saved does not contradict the fact that God has chosen from eternity past those who in time receive Christ as Savior and leaves in condemnation those who don't.

God knew even before He created the angels that Satan would rebel against Him. And He knew that He was going to create man as a result. God created the angels knowing that He would have to sentence the ones who rebelled to the lake of fire, and knowing that He would have to also sentence those members of the human race who rejected His provision for salvation to the same lake of fire as the fallen angels.

Knowing all of this He still chose to create the angels and man with volition. God wants the angels and man to come to Him of their own volition. He does not and will not coerce them.

I hope that better answers your question.
Mikey is no angel so he has not nor will be involved in any angelic conflict in the first place.
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:54 AM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
Even though God foreknows who will receive yet He draws all men to give them that choice. Only by this can He be called a just God who cares for all and gives all an opportunity... He can not violate the the free will of man because love would not be love without the exchange of the will
Hi, this is a contradiction. How is everyone then being given an opportunity when He already knows that they will not choose Him before He created them?
Why cannot He not violate the free will of man. He has done this as recorded in the scriptures.

Romans 9:18
"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."


He is to subject all things to Himself?

Hebrews 2:
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.




God can violate man's free will, because He has all power and it is His will that will be done, not ours, not what is believed to be man's free will. God's will is not subservient to our will.


Ephesians 1:
9 He [j]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 (NAS)


The scriptures say that one who commits sin is a slave to sin, so where is free will here? God bless.
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The issue of who gets credit for believing in Christ (God gets the credit) is not the point being addressed in this thread. The only thing being addressed here is that the reason God chooses or elects believers is because He knew beforehand that they would believe in Christ.

No one believes because they were chosen to believe. They are chosen (were chosen in eternity past) because they believe in time.

God certainly initiates contact with fallen man. God calls through the gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts at the point of gospel hearing. Having heard and understood the gospel message, a person can place his faith in Christ or he can resist the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry.

No one was predestined to believe in Christ. Those who God Knew beforehand would have positive volition toward the gospel were therefore predestined from eternity past. It's a matter of putting the horse in front of the cart instead of putting the cart in front of the horse. And I say that with 2 Thess 2:13 in mind. Election is from eternity past. Predestination is from eternity past. And the believers election and predestination are based on God foreknowledge which is based on His decree, which is based on His omniscience.

I'll put it like this. The believer's positive volition is not based on having been predestined. His having been predestined is based on his positive volition toward Christ.
Good post, and good thread.
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
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"God calls through the gospel message. The Holy Spirit convicts at the point of gospel hearing. Man can resist the Holy Spirit, or he can come to Christ through a positive faith response to the gospel. It is his choice."

Why should Man (indeed 'Man') resist the Holy Spirit? Is it Political Man: then God clearly marks that he intended to fail the realm of Self-deceivability and Contingency. Is it the Man of Natural struggle and the justice for His Actions in Time: then the World of God's Creation is as it is, fulfilled of the Holy Spirit because Christ existed once a Time ago to Return to Judge the Living and the Dead. each individual, I believe, will ultimately be forgiven. That would be the enlightening of the Buddha-like Man in all of Us.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:05 AM
 
Location: NC
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Another example of God violating man's free will is found in the scriptures which speak of God' hardening Pharaoh (Exodus 9-14) and in scriptures that speak of God hardening some of His people, according to His own purposes.


Romans 11 (caps from the translation):

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s [c]gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer [d]on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but [e]those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
9 And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10 “LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.” 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12

Pharaoh was a man who had what many believe to be a free will and the Israelites did also, but God hardened them anyway.

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-29-2011 at 09:39 AM..
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:11 AM
 
Location: NC
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A few more scriptures on the sovereignty of God's will are: (caps from the translations)

"The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will" (Proverb 21:1).

"That He is the most high, doing according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35).

"But He is in one mind, and who can turn Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth" (Job 23:13).


"For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? (Isaiah 14:27).

"Remember the former things of old: For I am God, and there is none else! I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times shall the things that are not yet done, saying, My Counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:9-10).

"Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, IF THE LORD WILL we shall live, and do this or that" (James 4:13-15).


God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-29-2011 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:32 AM
 
299 posts, read 210,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Another example of God violating man's free will is found in the scriptures which speak of God' hardening Pharaoh (Exodus 9-14) and in scriptures that speak of God hardening some of His people, according to His own purposes.


Romans 11 (caps from the translation):

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s [c]gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer [d]on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but [e]those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
9 And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10 “LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.” 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12

God bless.
RE: "Let their table etc."
The Jews do not observe the Lord's table which is the table referenced. The Lord's table is only located in the presence of the Lord's enemies.
"Thou preparest a table before Me in the presence of mine enemies."
Like it or not one makes himself guilty of the Lord's body and blood by participating in this table upon falsely discerning that the crucifixion of Jesus' is not an accountable offense by law and then participates. Because giving approval of the death of a prophet of God caused by bloodshed one makes himself guilty of their transgression, i.e. Jesus' crucifixion.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:40 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,828,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Okay, thank you, Mike, for sharing your belief. It still seems to be a contradiction if your belief is that God would desire all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth when He already knew that they would never come to Him when He created all things. It is like someone saying, I don't want you to fall into this pit that I made for someone but I already know that you will fall into it as I build this pit. God is love. God bless.
I don't recall anywhere in the Bible about God giving permission for humans to second guess his Omniscience.

God is love ... God is also holy and just ..... God is also Jealous Exodus 34:14


Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
God knew who would come to believe in him and who wouldn't by virtue of his omniscience. He didn't create the "pit" so that many will fall into it...... the "pit" was created for those who fall and reject the truth, starting with the Devil and his demons, then those who follow him (as Jesus calls unbelievers - "children of the devil" )




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