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Just something to ponder Mike555 and all of those who think there IS going to be a rapture.
Revelation tells us there will be 144,000of the tribes of Israelthat will be redeemed from the earth. So if the world population is currently about 7 billion...that gives ppl the chance of about .000002 to make the cut.
The 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, have absolutely nothing to do with the church which will have been raptured prior to the beginning of the Tribulation. The Tribulation is about God's judgment on Israel, and on the unbelieving nations of the earth. The church by definition is composed of believers and has nothing to do with the judgement of the Tribulation. Also, there will be Gentiles saved during the Tribulation. Not just Jews.
Ah, now you've spoken the name of "he who's name must not be spoken"---"he" who has fleeced Jesus' gullible flock with gobbledygook so inane as to defy rational comprehension; "he" who has line his nest with boatloads of loot passing off utter baloney as sound theological doctrine; "he" who's love of the almighty buck runs so deep that "he" willingly and without a second thought leads gullible Christians off the deep end like lemmings with his flat-out drivel, again all for the sake of satisfying his insatiable lust for green.
Fools and their money, eh?
What was it Jesus said? My house is a house of prayer and you have made it into a den of thieves" ?
Oh I'm sure I will soon hear from those justifying the accumulation of massive wealth by some acting in the name of Jesus.
Just be aware of the FEMA camps, Noahide Laws, and Guillotine laws which look to quite possibly go into effect in the event of a "national emergency" via suspending the Constitution.
Noahide Laws pronounce death penalty for pronouncing Jesus as Messiah and Lord considering it Idolatry and Blashphemy.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
The 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, have absolutely nothing to do with the church which will have been raptured prior to the beginning of the Tribulation. The Tribulation is about God's judgment on Israel, and on the unbelieving nations of the earth. The church by definition is composed of believers and has nothing to do with the judgement of the Tribulation. Also, there will be Gentiles saved during the Tribulation. Not just Jews.
You are very confused and have your facts mixed up. Part of your confusion comes from not looking to the OT to explain the NT.
And actually, the 144,000 aren't "Jews." How do we know this? After Solomon's death Israel was split into two houses. [You would know this if you studied the OT]. The House of Judah=Judah/Benjamin and some Levites, and the House of Israel=the other tribes.
God divorced the House of Israel and they were scattered abroad; losing their identity. [That's why up to this day, only Judah has returned to the nation of Israel since they didn't lose their identity]. You would also know He divorced Israel if you studied the OT.
They, the 10 tribes intermingled with the 'nations' where God scattered them [and He will gather them back again] and for all you know, you [or I] could very well be from the House of Israel and part of the 144,000, and not actually gentiles [which btw means 'nations] afterall.
So my point? I have a couple of them:
1.) The 'church' didn't start in the NT. Luke tells us the 'church' was called the assembly/congregation in the OT. How do we know this? He tells us Moses was in the church [ekklesia=called out ones ]in the wilderness. What was the 'church' called in the OT? The congregation/assembly.
BTW, it's also called assembly/synagogue in the NT:
Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly [church, ekklesia=called out ones ]was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.[Acts 19:32]
But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.[ekklesia] [Acts 19:39]
And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly[ekklesia] [Ac 19:41].
For if there come unto your assembly[sunagoge,synagogue/congregation]a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; [Jas 2:2]
It's quite arrogant of ppl to think the OT saints aren't part of God's 'called out ones.' That God only first called/chose ppl when Christ was here on the earth. That the elect/remnant/saints only began with the NT.
2.) So only 12,000 of the 144 are actually Jews/of Judah.
ETA: BTW, IF you think Christ came to preach the gospel to the 'church' and the House of Israel [11/12 of the 144,000] isn't part of the church, then you need to read Matt. 10:6, and 15:24.
Last edited by mshipmate; 02-21-2012 at 12:11 PM..
Reason: fix typos
You are very confused and have your facts mixed up. Part of your confusion comes from not looking to the OT to explain the NT.
And actually, the 144,000 aren't "Jews." How do we know this? After Solomon's death Israel was split into two houses. [You would know this if you studied the OT]. The House of Judah=Judah/Benjamin and some Levites, and the House of Israel=the other tribes.
God divorced the House of Israel and they were scattered abroad; losing their identity. [That's why up to this day, only Judah has returned to the nation of Israel since they didn't lose their identity]. You would also know He divorced Israel if you studied the OT.
They, the 10 tribes intermingled with the 'nations' where God scattered them [and He will gather them back again] and for all you know, you [or I] could very well be from the House of Israel and part of the 144,000, and not actually gentiles [which btw means 'nations] afterall.
So my point? I have a couple of them:
1.) The 'church' didn't start in the NT. Luke tells us the 'church' was called the assembly/congregation in the OT. How do we know this? He tells us Moses was in the church [ekklesia=called out ones ]in the wilderness. What was the 'church' called in the OT? The congregation/assembly.
BTW, it's also called assembly/synagogue in the NT:
Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly [church, ekklesia=called out ones ]was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.[Acts 19:32]
But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.[ekklesia] [Acts 19:39]
And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly[ekklesia] [Ac 19:41].
For if there come unto your assembly[sunagoge,synagogue/congregation]a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; [Jas 2:2]
It's quite arrogant of ppl to think the OT saints aren't part of God's 'called out ones.' That God only first called/chose ppl when Christ was here on the earth. That the elect/remnant/saints only began with the NT.
2.) So only 12,000 of the 144 are actually Jews/of Judah.
ETA: BTW, IF you think Christ came to preach the gospel to the 'church' and the House of Israel [11/12 of the 144,000] isn't part of the church, then you need to read Matt. 10:6, and 15:24.
The confusion is yours. I will deal with this at a later date. I'm doing other things at the moment.
There is no Rapture. Waiting on it, wishing for it, fearing it or hoping for it, are just deflections from the work you were put on earth by God to do. Obsession with the Rapture, takes one away from her Christian walk. It is a convenient excuse for not helping others in need, because, hey, the Rapture is about to happen anyway! If those pesky" poor people are saved, they will be going to Heaven with me-and all the others in my church!"
JN Darby made it up in the mid 1800s. Around the same time as the Catholics came up with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
There is no Rapture. Waiting on it, wishing for it, fearing it or hoping for it, are just deflections from the work you were put on earth by God to do. Obsession with the Rapture, takes one away from her Christian walk. It is a convenient excuse for not helping others in need, because, hey, the Rapture is about to happen anyway! If those pesky" poor people are saved, they will be going to Heaven with me-and all the others in my church!"
JN Darby made it up in the mid 1800s. Around the same time as the Catholics came up with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
Agreed there's no rapture. The Scriptures when taken as a whole [not taking a couple verses out of context] teach resurrection, not a rapture.
And the rapture theory [note it's not a fact just a theory] was taught long before Darby and Mary McDonald's 'vision.' It was perpetuated by a Jesuit priest but Mike choses to totally ignore facts. See my post to Mike:
The confusion is yours. I will deal with this at a later date. I'm doing other things at the moment.
No, Mike I'm not confused. I go by what Messiah Himself taught, not by men's traditons [which make void the Word of God].
I know one of the reasons you believe in the rapture is because you think the GT is the Day of the Lord i.e the day of God [or the Lord's Day]. The problem with that is that isn't what Messiah taught.
I will get back to the explanation of the above in a moment, but I want to talk a bit about God's wrath. I also know ppl that believe in the rapture think God's wrath will be poured out during the GT also. [Again not what Messiah taught] and since believers aren't destined to suffer God's wrath they are positive they won't be here.
Now back to what Messiah taught about both things: Day of the Lord, and God's wrath:
He went into the synagogue and asked for the scroll of Isaiah and read from chapter 61:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised;" [Luke 14:18]
Then He closed the scroll and sat down.
Here's vs. 1 and 2:
1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because YHVH hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of YHVH, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Now note something here. Messiah stopped reading at the semicolon. Why? Because that didn't pertain to His first advent, but will happen at His second coming when He pours out God's wrath/vengeance on His enemies . That's when it happes, NOT DURING THE GT.
Last edited by mshipmate; 03-01-2012 at 10:30 AM..
~ Rev.7: 9
The Rapture of when The Great Multitude
stands before The Throne and The Lamb
dressed in White with Palms in hand
for The Marriage 0f the Lamb is closer than you think...
~ Rev.7: 9
The Rapture of when The Great Multitude
stands before The Throne and The Lamb
dressed in White with Palms in hand
for The Marriage 0f the Lamb is closer than you think...
You do realize that Mt. Zion {Hebrew} or Mt. Sion [Greek] is a figurative name for Jerusalem?
Or in other words all the passages speaking of saints standing on Mt. Zion/Sion is refering to AFTER Messiah returns to the earth.
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