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IMO, Adam and Eve were "perfect" in the sense that they were perfectly equipped by God to choose ONLY what their combined reasonings and feelings persuaded them was the choice that they preferred the MOST.
Since Adam and Eve chose what their combined reasonings and feeling persuaded them was the choice that they preferred to make the MOST, it was not even possible that they could have chosen any other way than the way that they did.
To put it theologically, I would say that it was God's decretive will (that which MUST occur), that Adam and Eve chose to go against God's preceptive will (that which He had told them they should not do).
Personally, I'm a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist or prevent it from happening.
Like I said on an earlier post, I believe that the end result of the fall will eventually be far more glorious for everyone than if the fall had not ocurred.
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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
I agree with this because I believe that what we think of as being perfect was not God's will for them. Their "imperfection" was perfect for the plan that God had. Jesus, the second Adam, was perfect would never go against the Father's will or make the wrong "choice". Adam on the other hand was lacking because he made the wrong choice, which was perfect for God's plan. God bless.
There was no fall . . . it was our species first lesson on the path to spiritual maturity. That is our goal to be "perfect" as our Father is "perfect . . . except that the word translated as "perfect" means "mature." We are to mature spiritually, period.
Think on this though. There is a purpose in falling. It makes us humble. Before we can be made perfect we must understand what it is like to be imperfect...
I definitely agree with this. One quality of being perfect/mature/complete is to have a humble attitude, trusting in God and not self and recognizing our total dependency on God. God bless.
There was no fall . . . it was our species first lesson on the path to spiritual maturity. That is our goal to be "perfect" as our Father is "perfect . . . except that the word translated as "perfect" means "mature." We are to mature spiritually, period.
I agree with this too. "Fall" is just the terminology that is commonly used in theological circles.
The whole thing is about maturity. We cannot start out mature. We start out immature, and make mistakes.
the point in time when God temporarily introduced sin
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Originally Posted by legoman
I agree with this too. "Fall" is just the terminology that is commonly used in theological circles.
The whole thing is about maturity. We cannot start out mature. We start out immature, and make mistakes.
Instead of calling it the "fall," I guess we could call it the point in time when God temporarily introduced sin to achieve far more glorious goals than if He had left His creation without it.
An appropriate snippet from
JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
“Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained for everyone through its agency. In the brilliant glory of His ultimate the most somber and gloomy features of earth’s history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power and wisdom and love.
During the final eons every creature in the heavens and on the earth and under the earth will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father’s love revealed in them, and every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Thus will all ultimately be justified.”
I agree with this too. "Fall" is just the terminology that is commonly used in theological circles.
The whole thing is about maturity. We cannot start out mature. We start out immature, and make mistakes.
Just weighing in on the issue with some random thoughts...
The so called "Fall" of Adam had consequences for humanity. But not the consequences that most people think. Deny it as much as we want, but we tend to love tradition, and very few care to look into why it is that we have come to believe the things we do (ME INCLUDED... heck, for years I was the best at this, and I still haven't challenged all of my preconceived ideas about what the text is saying). The Lord is working on me in this area...
Also, most people think that Adam's was the only "Fall". Wait... what? Doesn't the Bible say "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith)
And of course, then people will say that "all" in this verse means "all without exception", instead of reading the Scriptures in context and understanding that Paul was saying "all without distinction" as Paul clearly states in the very previous verse. So, everyone who SINS falls, not everyone who was ever born. Yikes. Oh dear
I have a question. If God is perfect how can He allow evil to exist within His creation for that would make Him culpable.
Hi Brian, God does not allow evil to exist in HIS creation. Everything God does and is doing is to cut down the evil in this world. The Father is NOT the god of this world the devil is.
I build a beautiful house, then I rent the house out (give dominion) to another. The renter destroys my beautiful house.
Did I allow this destruction to happen because I rented out the house? Or did the renter because he was given dominion in the house cause all the destruction?
I posted this in another thread, however as it fits here I will repost it
God gave us dominion, that means we are given freedom to rule, and with that rule comes the responsiblity of how we rule.
We are to blame for how we rule not God.
Is God to blame for giving his son his inheritance?
Did the Father mirco manage the son to go and spend his inheritance foolishly?
No but He waited patiently until the son came to his senses and returned home.
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Another question following on from the last is this. IF God made Adam and Eve perfect how could they fall? (Genesis does not say "perfect" but "good") It seems to me that if they had the potential to fall then they were not made perfect. For example, God is Holy and to my mind that means perfect (Jesus' own words) and that surely means He is incapable of sinning. So was Adam's humanity less than perfect?
I agree with Mystic, perfect means to be mature. In order for man to mature God had to give man a freewill, it is true God is responsible for giving man a freewill, but God is NOT responsible for what man does with that freewill.
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No I don't think you are answering my questions Roger. If anything your responses make me feel very frustrated. And yYou have not once answered from scripture so how do I know it is not pure guesswork on your part?
Basically what you are telling me is that God intended that the more people suffer the horrors of this world the more glory God will get in the end! Sounds insanely selfish and sadistic to me.
That is because it is insanely selfish and sadistic.
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I read about the aftermath of Nagasaki bombing. The atom bomb struck the centre of a residential area. One place there were lots of chidren playing. They were annihilated of course but one survivor found among building debris where he was trapped only feet from advancing fire. His mother tried frantically to free him but could not and had to watch in horror while her little boy calling for help, was eventually overtaken by the fire and was burned alive in front of her. What you are telling mee is that God intended that to happen so that one day He will be glorified. Excuse me?
That is exactly what Roger is telling you. It is a belief that makes Hitler look like a saint, but many seem to believe it anyway. These things happen against Gods will, yet many will tell you that God even directed mans steps to do this, that He planned it all out exactly that way.
That is NOT the God I know.
God is love
Love worketh no evil
Love thinketh no evil.
If evil could creep in to ruin what God intended to create, then what assurance could we have for 'eternity.' What's to say that it couldn't happen again? Believe me, with every answer you find, 2-3, or more, questions will immediatley come to mind.
The assurance sis is found in the mind of Christ, when ALL of creation has the mind of Christ we have our assurance that it will never happen again.
Did I allow this destruction to happen because I rented out the house? Or did the renter because he was given dominion in the house cause all the destruction?
I posted this in another thread, however as it fits here I will repost it
God gave us dominion, that means we are given freedom to rule, and with that rule comes the responsiblity of how we rule.
We are to blame for how we rule not God.
Hi Pneuma... thought provoking post, thank you. I am wondering how you view Satan's role on earth. Is earth his kingdom? To what extent? Did Adam's sin (and our sin) give him dominion over earth which he would have otherwise not had? In other words - did Adam forfeit the dominion he/we were intended to have? Also, how would you best understand the truth that we have been ransomed by Jesus' death - does that have anything to do with us being under Satan's sway as the Bible describes that we are?
Hi Pneuma... thought provoking post, thank you. I am wondering how you view Satan's role on earth. Is earth his kingdom? To what extent? Did Adam's sin (and our sin) give him dominion over earth which he would have otherwise not had? In other words - did Adam forfeit the dominion he/we were intended to have?
Hi Steph, To whom we yield your members to is to whom we serve. Will we yield our dominion to Satan or to God? Choose ye this day whom you will serve.
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Also, how would you best understand the truth that we have been ransomed by Jesus' death - does that have anything to do with us being under Satan's sway as the Bible describes that we are?
Thanks for your insights!
Jesus death is not what saves us, it is His LIFE that does.
The question in my mind is what does His life represent?
To me it is total surrender to the will of the Father, to walk in perfect obedience, to say only what the Father says and do only what the Father says, to love as He loves never doing evil for evil but overcome the evil with good.
Here is my perception of the working out of God's will.
A snippet from THE PURPOSE OF GOD’S WILL – GUY MARKS
“God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some, evil is never to cease. God is never able, as they see it, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent, whereas the only freedom of man which the scriptures affirm is the freedom of deliverance we find alone in Christ Jesus.”
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the point in time when God temporarily introduced sin
Deny it as much as we want, but we tend to love tradition, and very few care to look into why it is that we have come to believe the things we do (ME INCLUDED... heck, for years I was the best at this, and I still haven't challenged all of my preconceived ideas about what the text is saying). The Lord is working on me in this area...
