God's Sovereign Will/Man's Limited Will (Moses, prophets, Abraham, Jews)

[ShanaBrown]

In general, the idea of an individual creator "Loving" in a vacuum, seems to me at least, improbable. And if, before creation, our God was, as I believe, a Loving God, what was the object of that Love. Surely it was not individual self Love. It was the Love of the Son. It was relationship.
It is what informs my belief in the triune nature of God.

Thanks, Oakback. I am just wondering how this relates to the belief that God acts on our wills to bring them as a result the hardenend heart returns to Him, and willingly loves Him. Reconciliation means a restoration of a relationship which as been disturbed, and so when Paul says that it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, (Colossians 1), this means to me that He is restoring something that happened when all became estranged from Him. But the thing is, He is the initiator and works to bring about the reconciliation. In having all power to remove "open the eyes" of all who are now lost, blinded, his enemies, He is bringing about what is needed to restore that relationship. This involves mankind's response but it is ultimately the work of God. He has made peace through the blood of His cross.God bless.

[pneuma]

David's supplication for the "creation" of a clean heart was to have a "new" heart made, not simply to have the old heart circumcised. I'm not sure why you're using the term circumcised (as in cut) for the word "create" here. I understand what you mean, as in Deu 30:6, but that is a different Hebrew word. It would seem rather odd (a bit of a stretch really) to try and give that meaning to the term "create" in Psalm 51:10.

Here is a verse that speaks of God giving a "new heart", after taking away the old one:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

That's how I understand David's prayer anyway.

Deuteronomy 10:16
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Romans 2:29
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

A new heart is a heart that has been circumcised .

Regardless of what man might have been thinking when he was used to pen scripture, the very words of scripture are inspired by God, as if he Himself personally wrote them. I realize man's interpretation, or understanding, of those scripture may often be wrong, however the very words of scripture themselves are not going anywhere.

Isa 40:7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

As I have said many times not everything in the bible is scripture, the lying pen of the scribes added much and the word of God is Christ not the bible.

I don't believe Clarke knew who Jesus actually was, nor what that scriptures actually say. If Clarke's writings are any indication, he most likely did not believe the Gospel either.

Don't know where you get that from, but to each their own.

Or perhaps it means exactly what it says and your unable to come to terms with it within your doctrinal setting. Is that possible?

Only if it is possible for love to work evil or for love to think evil.

Well, I did quote you Act 4:27-28 before, which neither you or Clarke actually believe. And though I agree that the word "will" is not used in that particular text, however it does say God's "counsel determined" what should be done. And, that God's counsel works "all things" according to "His own will":

Huh, I don't think you really read what Clarke said if that is what you got out of what he said.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Do you really not see any of this?

Oh I see what your saying alright, but you fail to show where it say it is Gods will for us to sin.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Short answer . . . Yes . . . but it is His sovereign WILL that we have Dominion and a limited free will within the constraints He set. There is no question that God acts on our wills to try to get us to follow Christ's commands to "love God and each other." I don't think anyone is suggesting that we have absolute will free of all constraints and influences . . . and certainly not free of God's influence. Christ abides with us and His Holy Spirit guides us to what God has "written in our hearts." Unfortunately, we all do not LISTEN or respond to that guidance as our worldly and carnal concerns overpower our spiritual. THAT is what those of us who believe in free will are saying is the source of Evil in the world . . . NOT God's plan. God knows what we choose to do and why . . . but does not require it . . . He tolerates it in patient and long-suffering love for us all.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Personally, I see both in the context of choice.

It appears from the Scriptures, that man devises his own ways; until corrected.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

It appears from the Scriptures, that man devises his own ways; until corrected.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Thanks, Oakback. I am just wondering how this relates to the belief that God acts on our wills to bring them as a result the hardenend heart returns to Him, and willingly loves Him. Reconciliation means a restoration of a relationship which as been disturbed, and so when Paul says that it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, (Colossians 1), this means to me that He is restoring something that happened when all became estranged from Him. But the thing is, He is the initiator and works to bring about the reconciliation. In having all power to remove "open the eyes" of all who are now lost, blinded, his enemies, He is bringing about what is needed to restore that relationship. This involves mankind's response but it is ultimately the work of God. He has made peace through the blood of His cross.God bless.

No doubt, as you say, it is "God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself".

But what "good pleasure" would there be, if we all were predestined to love "Him"?
If we made no choice to love "Him".

It doesn't really sound like "Love" to me.

Perhaps, I'm very wrong.
Maybe the plan is and was;
make us fall
make us mess everything up
then fix us.

It just sounds more like some manipulative celestial puppeteer to me.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by pneuma

I did take into account your context Phase but if I answered to it, it would likely cause a division between us that would take a long time to repair so I did not say anything toward it.

This is an important concern and I hope we can resolve not to let it become a division between us, pneuma, Shana, and Phaze. I do not believe it is significant and does not alter our "love of God and each other." We will find out sooner or later which of us was right. Peace in Christ's love for us all, my brothers and sister, Mystic

[ShanaBrown]

Perhaps, I'm very wrong.
Maybe the plan is and was;
make us fall
make us mess everything up
then fix us.



Oakback,:

Create a situation in which we, not knowing or experiencing the nature and depth of our Creator's love (which He wants us to know and experience) , become estranged from Him, becoming His enemies and then bringing to us the revelation of His agape love for us. How could we fully and really know this about the nature of God's love for us? Now, we know Him as our Savior, One who gave His very own Son to die for us. We see now the heart of God in what He did by giving His own Son for us. How great is the depth and nature of God's love for us, the enemies. And what is our response to this?

Adam, as someone said, didn't know about God's love and the nature of God's love for him. You don't hide from someone that you fully know loves you, despite what you have done. But we know and fully rest in the bosom of the Father because we know that He truly loves us. Nothing that we can ever do, can separate us from the love of our Creator. And what is our response to this realization?

God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

This is an important concern and I hope we can resolve not to let it become a division between us, pneuma, Shana, and Phaze. I do not believe it is significant and does not alter our "love of God and each other." We will find out sooner or later which of us was right. Peace in Christ's love for us all, my brothers and sister, Mystic

I agree, Mystic. The important thing is that we love one another, despite our differences on this or on any other subject. God bless.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Perhaps, I'm very wrong.
Maybe the plan is and was;
make us fall
make us mess everything up
then fix us.



Oakback,:

Create a situation in which we, not knowing or experiencing the nature and depth of our Creator's love (which He wants us to know and experience) , become estranged from Him, becoming His enemies and then bringing to us the revelation of His agape love for us. How could we fully and really know this about the nature of God's love for us? Now, we know Him as our Savior, One who gave His very own Son to die for us. We see now the heart of God in what He did by giving His own Son for us. How great is the depth and nature of God's love for us, the enemies. And what is our response to this?

Adam, as someone said, didn't know about God's love and the nature of God's love for him. You don't hide from someone that you fully know loves you, despite what you have done. But we know and fully rest in the bosom of the Father because we know that He truly loves us. Nothing that we can ever do, can separate us from the love of our Creator. And what is our response to this realization?

God bless.

Shana,

This is why I am so fond of you.
Your love of Christ edify s me.
And yes, it would seem impossible to reject the Love that is offered to ALL.

We always seem to come back to this;
Your deep and beautiful love for Christ makes it unimaginable to believe that either someone could reject it. Or that God would allow someone to reject it.
And I really hope you are correct.

And you may very well be.

God willing