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God's Sovereign Will/Man's Limited Will
For me the most important issue is
God will not let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
I agree with you there. When I talk of freedom, we may always disagree and that is ok, but I also know that mans will is not in control of everything, even if it is in control of a limited portion of the whole scope of existance.
We cannot choose anything outside of the created realm and the ultimate goal God has promised for us.
It is fun discussing the dynamics of how all that might work, but I do know that when faced with a choice, I am ultimatly the one that makes it, at the very least.
Hi Phazelwood... Wow... Your post focuses on one sentence I said, which you have also misunderstood (no human designs doctrine to deliberately lull people into complacency... think on that). And then you go on to talk about being concerned about how various people define sin. Do you think it is not possible to know what sin is? Your post shows that you haven't understood how God imputes sin. I know this is probably going to be too radical for some people to handle but oh well - here goes - God does not impute sin where there is no law. Sin is not counted if you have no knowledge that you are breaking a commandment. Sin is not counted unless you know it is sin. So you can't wink at that! This is across the board! There are some things that God wants everyone to understand are against His very nature. This is why we have a conscience.
Now we can discuss this further and it is important, but this understanding of what counts as sin, should hopefully shed light for you on my previous post.
Steph
I never said it is not possible to know what sin is, I am saying that if you say something is wrong to do , it may not necessarily be true, just because you say that it is.
The reason I focused upon that point is that is at the root of the problem. When you assert what is sin, what makes you absolutely correct? Is it because you can attach the word God to what you say? Anyone can do that.
So when you think a belief system teaches people to wink at sin all you are doing is presenting a vague opinion that demonstrates nothing factual.
If your logic is correct then it would be impossible for me to believe that God is going to save all mankind and want to be a better more righteous person. Your logic does not add up to the reality of how I live, so the burden of proof is on you to explain the problem. So please do so.
You wrote
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Sin is not counted if you have no knowledge that you are breaking a commandment. Sin is not counted unless you know it is sin. So you can't wink at that!
Well, then it would be in our best interests to remain ignorant as possible. Wink at that.
The problem is that what you wrote here is exactly what I was illustrating. We cannot mature by remaining ignorant. At some point we have to determine what is wrong and right in our lives. If you say you CAN know what sin is, I agree, however, what you tell me is wrong, and what I should not do, may not be necessaily correct, just because you have a bible and good argument.
Last edited by Phazelwood; 01-26-2012 at 01:51 PM..
I never said it is not possible to know what sin is, I am saying that if you say something is wrong to do , it may not necessarily be true, just because you say that it is.
I'm glad you agree that we can know what sin is. If you say that something is wrong (ie: you believe it is wrong) to do, it is necessarily wrong for you. It is not necessarily wrong for everyone. If it was, it would be written on their conscience. Whoever knows that something is sin (or believes that it is, even if it is not a moral absolute written on their conscience), sins if they do it.
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When you assert what is sin, what makes you absolutely correct? Is it because you can attach the word God to what you say? Anyone can do that.
I am confused. First you said "I never said it's not possible to know what sin is" but here it seems like you are saying that someone shouldn't assert what sin is. In any event - I am not listing specific things in the Bible which are named as sinful. I am concerned with defining sin according to the Bible, and how God decides if we have sinned or not. (not how I decide!) In other words, I was merely providing the Biblical definitions by which you can evaluate if ANYTHING is sin. Here are some verse references for you and, as always, should be understood in their context:
Romans 14:22,23
Romans 2:15
1 John 3:4
James 4:17
James 1:13-15
Romans 5:13
Romans 2:15
Romans 7:9
1 Corinthians 8:7-9
None of the above verses name anything that is universally sinful.
Knowledge of what is and isn't a righteous requirement of the law (Romans 8:4) will enable us to live in increasing degrees of freedom and strengthen our consciences (if they are weak due to an incorrect understanding of what is really a righteous requirement - such as in the 1 Cor 8 text). We are to patiently bear with our weaker brother and not cause Him to stumble if he has a weak conscience.
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So when you think a belief system teaches people to wink at sin all you are doing is presenting a vague opinion that demonstrates nothing factual.
Are you asking me to demonstrate how the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ is not Biblically defensible and furthermore creates an open door for license for sin? Perhaps via DM if you like.
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If your logic is correct then it would be impossible for me to believe that God is going to save all mankind and want to be a better more righteous person. Your logic does not add up to the reality of how I live, so the burden of proof is on you to explain the problem. So please do so.
I am sorry my logic does not add up to the reality of how you live. Perhaps you can provide an alternative interpretation of the verses above explaining how God counts sin against us, and how we can evaluate whether anything in our life is sinful, for my consideration?
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Well, then it would be in our best interests to remain ignorant as possible. Wink at that.
Technically you are right. God is good and does not judge the innocent. "Unfortunately" for the rest of us, we all grow up, learn right from wrong, and fall short of the glory of God. Thank God for his mercy towards the repentant and His grace we are given through faith. Grace to live righteously.
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The problem is that what you wrote here is exactly what I was illustrating. We cannot mature by remaining ignorant. At some point we have to determine what is wrong and right in our lives. If you say you CAN know what sin is, I agree, however, what you tell me is wrong, and what I should not do, may not be necessaily correct, just because you have a bible and good argument.
Defining every little detail of sin is not the consuming mindset for people who are walking after the Spirit.... Christians are concerned with the good works God has prepared for us to do (not just the bad works or sins we have been delivered from). Christians have been purified to be a people for God's own possession, zealous for good works... (not only zealous for abstaining from bad works, although we are to do this too! Hebrews 12:3-4) This is the holiness we are to pursue!
Blessings
Stephanie
Last edited by Steph1980; 01-26-2012 at 07:33 PM..
What I would like to bring out tho is the following. A baby dies, before he has done anything willfully to defy a parent's or God's law. Yay. Only.......what does he take to the afterlife? What did he learn about obedience or compassion or mercy? Absolutely nothing. So how does he function?
Does he remain in his infant state? Does he ever progress?
The same question needs to be addressed about the mentally challenged. What does he bring to his afterlife if he can't understand guilt, mercy, etc.?
So does God just give these individuals a new heart and give him the knowledge of all these evil and good things without ever having had to go through them. Will 'his' love for his savior and creator be the same as one who experienced healing, forgiveness, perseverence through earthly trials?
If God could/would just give these individuals the ability to live 'in heaven' without having undergone the trials of the one who lived to be 75 had to, why couldn't /wouldn't He do it for everyone?
Each one has his own order in which he is made alive in Christ. I don't believe in reincarnation, which would be some people's answer to the question above. I believe that all are resurrected and those who were not able to have a life beyond the early years or any understanding will at that time, have to go through a similar experience as we did. Exactly how or when that happens, I can not say. But if we must become mature, then I believe everyone must have to pass through a training ground and become mature and I highly doubt that that could happen in a utopian environment.
I am confused. First you said "I never said it's not possible to know what sin is" but here it seems like you are saying that someone shouldn't assert what sin is.
Never said anything of the kind. My points are based upon your assertion that the concept that God will save all mankind will cause someone to wink at sin. I believe that concept, how am I winking at sin? If you think someone is winking at sin, then you are going to consume yourself with the details, otherwise your point has no validity.
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I am sorry my logic does not add up to the reality of how you live. Perhaps you can provide an alternative interpretation of the verses above explaining how God counts sin against us, and how we can evaluate whether anything in our life is sinful, for my consideration?
That is not the point, you are saying that my belief system causes me to wink at sin, I do not wink at sin, so explain how you are correct.
Never said anything of the kind. My points are based upon your assertion that the concept that God will save all mankind will cause someone to wink at sin. I believe that concept, how am I winking at sin? If you think someone is winking at sin, then you are going to consume yourself with the details, otherwise your point has no validity.
That is not the point, you are saying that my belief system causes me to wink at sin, I do not wink at sin, so explain how you are correct.
Whoa hold up.... What??
I said that the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ can cause people to wink at sin. (And this should go without saying, but to avoid being misunderstood again - that doesn't mean that everyone who believes that doctrine takes sin lightly!). Please read post #320 where I specifically said that I do not know what the early church believed about UR and that I agreed that it is very valid to consider what the early church taught about it. Then I went on to say that what I did know is that the early church's main focus was holy living - which is a fact supported by many early church works and I have no doubt that you would agree. Then I asked if Rodger could help me understand the connection between the doctrine of UR and obedience to God as I didn't think any doctrine that distracts or doesn't promote godliness was worth debating.
So, if your points are based on this assertion of mine.... I'm not really sure what to say about that as I never made any such assertion.
I said that the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ can cause people to wink at sin. (And this should go without saying, but to avoid being misunderstood again - that doesn't mean that everyone who believes that doctrine takes sin lightly!). Please read post #320 where I specifically said that I do not know what the early church believed about UR and that I agreed that it is very valid to consider what the early church taught about it. Then I went on to say that what I did know is that the early church's main focus was holy living - which is a fact supported by many early church works and I have no doubt that you would agree. Then I asked if Rodger could help me understand the connection between the doctrine of UR and obedience to God as I didn't think any doctrine that distracts or doesn't promote godliness was worth debating.
So, if your points are based on this assertion of mine.... I'm not really sure what to say about that as I never made any such assertion.
Actually one of your comments in that post, talked about "unconditional eternal security" that is one of the key phrases that people tend to use when talking about the UR concept.
My belief is not entirely unconditional per sey, I simply believe that God will do as he promises and save all mankind and the details pertain to our individual lives.
But the specifics of my personal beliefs are not what I am trying to defend or asking you to try to disprove. It is about the idea that this or that belief system causes one to wink at sin.
You say that you do not want to labor over the details, in my opinion, if you are going to claim someone winks at sin, you will have to.
So if I believe in the absolute promise that God will save all mankind, that is very close to believing in unconditional eternal security. From my view, I have never been on a road to eternal damnation because I do not believe such a path even exists. That however has not caused me to wink at sin.
What I am asking you, when talking to someone who your points imply they have been caused to wink at sin, why they don't, since you say it will lead someone to do just that.
Actually one of your comments in that post, talked about "unconditional eternal security" that is one of the key phrases that people tend to use when talking about the UR concept.
My belief is not entirely unconditional per sey, I simply believe that God will do as he promises and save all mankind and the details pertain to our individual lives.
But the specifics of my personal beliefs are not what I am trying to defend or asking you to try to disprove. It is about the idea that this or that belief system causes one to wink at sin.
You say that you do not want to labor over the details, in my opinion, if you are going to claim someone winks at sin, you will have to.
So if I believe in the absolute promise that God will save all mankind, that is very close to believing in unconditional eternal security. From my view, I have never been on a road to eternal damnation because I do not believe such a path even exists. That however has not caused me to wink at sin.
What I am asking you, when talking to someone who your points imply they have been caused to wink at sin, why they don't, since you say it will lead someone to do just that.
I think you raise a great point. I have never considered the doctrine of unconditional eternal security from that perspective. I was thinking of it in terms of those who believe that only some are saved when they first believe, and those "some" are then unconditionally eternally secure (the rest are damned). I see what you are saying though about UR being another way of looking at unconditional eternal security. Very interesting. It makes sense now why you thought i was suggesting that your belief system can cause people to wink at sin, even though it isn't specifically what i had in mind when i mentioned unconditional eternal security. As I said in post #320, I have not ever really looked into this doctrine - could you summarize what UR means to you and why you believe it? (scriptures, etc)
Also, details are actually very important to me which is why I was willing to further explain my assertion about the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ. I don't recall saying I don't want to labour over details?
I think you raise a great point. I have never considered the doctrine of unconditional eternal security from that perspective. I was thinking of it in terms of those who believe that only some are saved when they first believe, and those "some" are then unconditionally eternally secure (the rest are damned). I see what you are saying though about UR being another way of looking at unconditional eternal security. Very interesting. It makes sense now why you thought i was suggesting that your belief system can cause people to wink at sin, even though it isn't specifically what i had in mind when i mentioned unconditional eternal security. As I said in post #320, I have not ever really looked into this doctrine - could you summarize what UR means to you and why you believe it? (scriptures, etc)
Also, details are actually very important to me which is why I was willing to further explain my assertion about the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ. I don't recall saying I don't want to labour over details?
Blessings
Steph
Rodger here Steph, I hope you don't mind if I jump in here.
Firstly, this link helps solve many problems connected to believing that the Bible teaches UR (universal reconciliation).
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED Bible Threatenings Explained
Now here is why I myself believe the Bible teaches UR.
Sooner or later “God will have all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God’s “pleasure” that all mankind be saved.
And “God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read “in accord with the counsel of what He wants” if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand. I will do all my pleasure.
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him? He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND (1Tim. 2:4 says so)
Why will it happen? Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
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Here is why I believe that the Bible teches UR
