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Old 01-31-2012, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,219 posts, read 1,609,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
Hi Pneuma, thanks for your feedback. Do you have another Scripture that reinforces your interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:9-11? On my immediate reading of it, it could be understood to mean that Jesus is the only Saviour of anyone who gets saved. (There is salvation in no other name, but that salvation is only for those who believe)

If that is what it is saying, then verse 11 is not saying we should teach and command UR at all, but that we should teach that Jesus has made salvation possible for all, and will save those who believe. I am not closed to your understanding of it, but just looking for more Bible evidence. Thanks so much friend.

Steph

Hi Steph I don't believe it can be read the way you are reading it. It clearly says the saviour of ALL men, SPECIALLY of those that believe.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Do you not see in these verses that it is talking about two different groups of people? All men and those that believe. So how can it be saying that Jesus is only the saviour of anyone who gets saved?

Here are a few other scriptures that witness the salvation of ALL men.

Many will refuse to believe He is the saviour of the world because I say He is but when they hear HIM speak for themselves they will indeed know that Christ is the saviour of the world.

John 4:42
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

What is it we have seen and do testify? That the Father sent the Son, the saviour of the world. The words "to be" are not in the original manuscripts but are word ADDED by the translator. It should have been translated without those words and no one would doubt that the Son is the saviour of the world. But alas man had to put their own twist on the scriptures ADDING "to be" to the scriptures in order to back up their own belief.

1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Simply put HE is the saviour of the world.
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Default God's Sovereign Will/Man's Limited Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Hi Steph I don't believe it can be read the way you are reading it. It clearly says the saviour of ALL men, SPECIALLY of those that believe.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Do you not see in these verses that it is talking about two different groups of people? All men and those that believe. So how can it be saying that Jesus is only the saviour of anyone who gets saved?

Here are a few other scriptures that witness the salvation of ALL men.

Many will refuse to believe He is the saviour of the world because I say He is but when they hear HIM speak for themselves they will indeed know that Christ is the saviour of the world.

John 4:42
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

What is it we have seen and do testify? That the Father sent the Son, the saviour of the world. The words "to be" are not in the original manuscripts but are word ADDED by the translator. It should have been translated without those words and no one would doubt that the Son is the saviour of the world. But alas man had to put their own twist on the scriptures ADDING "to be" to the scriptures in order to back up their own belief.

1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Simply put HE is the saviour of the world.
An appropriate snippet
GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES

“In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God ‘is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,’ and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it.

The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the ‘all mankind.’ God’s will for all mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.

My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
‘To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!’ ”
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:06 PM
 
Location: NC
11,501 posts, read 8,957,607 times
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Amen. God bless.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Default God's Sovereign Will/Man's Limited Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Hi Steph I don't believe it can be read the way you are reading it. It clearly says the saviour of ALL men, SPECIALLY of those that believe.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Do you not see in these verses that it is talking about two different groups of people? All men and those that believe. So how can it be saying that Jesus is only the saviour of anyone who gets saved?

Here are a few other scriptures that witness the salvation of ALL men.

Many will refuse to believe He is the saviour of the world because I say He is but when they hear HIM speak for themselves they will indeed know that Christ is the saviour of the world.

John 4:42
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

What is it we have seen and do testify? That the Father sent the Son, the saviour of the world. The words "to be" are not in the original manuscripts but are word ADDED by the translator. It should have been translated without those words and no one would doubt that the Son is the saviour of the world. But alas man had to put their own twist on the scriptures ADDING "to be" to the scriptures in order to back up their own belief.

1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Simply put HE is the saviour of the world.
That's why our God is a happy God.
Sooner or later His sovereign will to save all will supercede our enslaved will, just like it did for Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.

THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB

“We read in 1Tim. 1:11 that Paul was entrusted with the evangel of the glory of the happy God. We read in 1Tim. 2:4 that God wills that all mankind be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth, and that Christ Jesus gave Himself a correspondent ransom for all (2:6).

Our God is a happy God. In Ephesians 1:10,11 we learn of the secret of God’s will, and this accords with His delight. It gives God joy and happiness and delight to purpose and bring about ‘an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ.’
Such an evangel is certainly for the laud of His glory.”
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:29 PM
 
Location: NC
11,501 posts, read 8,957,607 times
Reputation: 1268
Amen. God bless.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:56 PM
 
3,602 posts, read 1,703,590 times
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All one needs to do to expose universalism "all are saved" heresies is to Expand on the one verse theology provided to support their position to take the text in context.

The Lord Jesus indeed tasted death for every man dying for the sins of the World. Only those that come to him are saved from Damnation though.

John 3

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


The Lord separates it into two groups1) not condemned/everlasting life 2) condemned.

one condition... Believing on him.

Matthew 7
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Luke 13
2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:00 PM
 
Location: NC
11,501 posts, read 8,957,607 times
Reputation: 1268
Hi, many will perish, be lost, experience destruction, be condemned, experience eonian damnation and in the end they will all belong to God and He will be all in all. All will not be restored at the same time. The sacrifice of Jesus will not result in a handful of people being reconciled to God, but will affect the whole creation. He will undo what happened when the first Adam disobeyed, and restore all to the Father. Such is the power of God who will subject all things to Himself.

Colossians 1: 15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [y]is before all things, and in Him all things [z]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For [aa]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [ab]fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [ac]heaven.
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in [ad]the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, [ae]was made a [af]minister... (NAS)

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-02-2012 at 08:19 PM..
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:45 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,437,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
All one needs to do to expose universalism "all are saved" heresies is to Expand on the one verse theology provided to support their position to take the text in context.
I am unaware of anyone who takes one verse and claims that is all there is to their belief system. You might try to set up a strawman argument with that claim, but I believe God will save all mankind and do not simply say one verse proves it all.

When you talk about context, now you are simply claiming the context you agree with is the absolute correct one, when the reality is that you can't demonstrate that. All you can do is claim that the process by which your context is arrived at must therefore be correct because you say it is.

All theological positions are based upon applying context to the bible. There are all kinds of contexts and all kinds of theology, what it comes down to mostly is that the claim of "out of context" is moot.

If that is the best you can do to say the idea is false, then you haven't actually proven anything.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,219 posts, read 1,609,600 times
Reputation: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
All one needs to do to expose universalism "all are saved" heresies is to Expand on the one verse theology provided to support their position to take the text in context.


Sorry but you teach another Gospel then the one we are commanded to teach


2 Corinthians 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If you preach or teach any other gospel then what we are commanded to teach, the serpent though his subtilty has corrupted your mind and perverted the gospel of Christ.

Here is that which we are commanded to teach, let not the serpent continue to beguile you.



1 Timothy 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

As Shanna pointed out already "many will perish, be lost, experience destruction, be condemned, experience eonian damnation and in the end they will all belong to God and He will be all in all."

Why? Because the gospel will be preached to them that are dead that they might live according to God in the spirit.


1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Myself I am fully persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Whom is it that God so loved? The WORLD and NOTHING can separate the WORLD from the love of God.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Default God's Sovereign Will/Man's Limited Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
God's Sovereign Will/Man's Limited Will

A snippet from
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO PERISH (or be destroyed)
What Does it Mean to "Perish?"
Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as “perish” or “destroy,” the original word is “apollumi.” The Greek word “apollumi” means to “to lose, or to be lost.”

We are all in a state of being lost till God lays hold on us by His sovereign grace, and causes Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like He did for Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus.

Sooner or later we can be sure that He will find and rescue all of the lost because God wants ALL mankind to be saved (1Tim. 2:4).

Sooner or later God always gets what He wants.
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