U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-01-2012, 06:12 PM
 
Location: NC
11,624 posts, read 9,023,507 times
Reputation: 1274

Advertisements

Thank you for sharing, Boanerges God bless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-02-2012, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,225 posts, read 1,630,157 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
The words, free will are not in the Bible. The concept is not even taught. Before conversion, man is in bondage to sin. He can choose to keep the commandments outwardly, but he or she is still in bondage to unbelief, is an enemy of God, and by nature an object of wrath. After conversion, he has a somewhat restored free will, but even that is false to a great degree. Why? Because his sinful flesh still is fighting God, not wanting to do God's will, not wanting to love God or love his neighbor. Also, the reality is that God is working in his life, to guide him on a certain path, protecting him from certain dangers. So, you can talk all about free will you want, but I'd rather discuss what the Bible teaches.


Actually free will is in the bible it is one word freewill not two words.

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Constraint
317 anagkastos { an-ang-kas-toce’}

from a derivative of 315;; adv

AV - by constraint 1; 1

GK - 339 { ajnagkastw`" }
  • by force or constrain

Rooted in
315 anagkazo { an-ang-kad’-zo}

from 318; TDNT - 1:344,55; v

AV - compel 5, constrain 4; 9

GK - 337 { ajnagkavzw }

1) to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain
1a) by force, threats, etc.
1b) by permission, entreaties, etc.
1c) by other means

Willingly

1596 hekousios { hek-oo-see’-ose}

from the same as 1595; TDNT - *,221; adv

AV - wilfully 1, willingly 1; 2

GK - 1731 { eJkousivw" }

1) voluntarily, willingly, of one’s own accord
1a) to sin wilfully as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness
Rooted in
1635 hekon { hek-own’}

of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 2:469,221; adj

AV - willingly 2; 2

GK - 1776 { eJkwvn }

1) unforced, voluntary, willing
2) of one’s own will
3) of one’s own accord

God want us to serve Him and love Him willingly, not by constraint.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2012, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,225 posts, read 1,630,157 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
I will say at the start that I do believe that man has a will and makes choices but my belief is that this will is limited, restrained, influenced by outside forces, and is not ultimately free. And I base this belief on what I understand to be revealed in the scriptures. So if you would like to discuss this respectfully, please post.

Here is are my beliefs on the subject:

God is the Creator of the universe and is sovereign over the creation


Micro sovereignty or macro sovereignty?

Quote:
God has all power


Agreed

Quote:
Man is a creature and is not sovereign


God gave man dominion; one cannot have dominion unless one is sovereign.

Quote:
Man does not have all power


Agreed

Quote:
God is actively involved in what happens in the creation


Agreed, but from a different perspective. God through His sons is actively destroying the works of the devil. God is not involved or active in sin, or evil.

Quote:
God actively seeks to influence our wills


Agreed. However, this seems a strange thing for you to say. For if God is sovereign after your understanding why does He seek to influence our wills? Would not everything be exactly as He planned it to be? Therefore, the sins and evils of this world are according to Gods influence. Sorry sis I don’t buy that, God has nothing to do with sin and evil.

Quote:
God actually influences the wills of men according to what He has purposed


Agreed. However, Gods purpose has nothing to do with sin and evil. This is an error so many seem to have fallen into; thinking because God does everything according to His purpose sin and evil must be according to Gods purpose. Yet God’s purpose is to destroy sin and evil and it is in this perspective that God influences man according to what He has purposed.

Quote:
God temporarily allows or permits men to resist His will according to His purpose


Rejection of God is not according to His purpose Shana.

Quote:
God's will will ultimately be done in the creation


Agreed, however this is also a strange thing for you to say. If sin and evil is according to Gods purpose then God’s will is already and has always been done in creation.


Quote:

I posted this in another thread because someone suggested that if God acts on our "free wills" this is not indicative of love. So I asked:


*Would this be love?

A mother sees her child heading out into the busy street, and calls to the child to come but, but the child, in his free will chooses to run out into the busy street anyway. The mother dashes out and grabs the child out of the busy street and takes him to safety. The mother explains to the child the dangers of running out into the busy street, teaching the child the danger associated with his actions and the child learns what could have happened if he had stayed in the street. The next time he does not run out into the street because now he knows better.Was love expressed by the mother who grabbed the child and taught the child, seeking to change the child's will? We seek to change our children's wills as we teach them each day if we are good parents and want the best for our children.



That scenario does not fit your understanding of everything that happens is according to God purpose. You start out by saying A mother sees her child heading out into the busy street, and calls to the child to come but, but the child, in his free will chooses to run out into the busy street anyway. If everything is according to God purpose as you believe would it not then follow that God put the child inharm’s wayto begin with?


Quote:
*My questions were:

Is this wrong for the mother to be effective in bringing about a change in the child's will?



No, however if it was the mother will for the child to run into the street to begin with something is definitely wrong with the mother. A child does not need to be burned by fire in order to understand fire burns.


Quote:
Is it wrong for God to seek to change our wills and even to influence our wills so that they are in conformity to His will?



No, but again that is a strange thing for you to say if everything that happens in man’s life is according to God’s purpose.


Quote:
Is it wrong for Him, who is the Creator and has sovereign power, to be successful in this?



No it is not wrong, God’s purpose will be done on earth just as it is in heaven. However, His will is not yet being done on earth. This alone should tell us that not everything that happens in this life is according to His purpose.




Quote:
*My question is here - Do you believe that persuading someone or convincing someone is wrong for one to do and is it wrong for God to do this? Are this against your view of what love is?



No it is not wrong for God to do this. However, to pursued one to sin and do evil is defiantly not according to love.


Quote:
I believe that God actively influences our wills and also that ultimately, no one can resist whatever He purposes to happen.



Agreed, but again this is a strange thing for you to say as you also believe everything that happens is according to His purpose.


Quote:
My other references on this subject are just a few scriptures which I do believe speak to God's sovereignty as far as man's will is concerned.




Hebrews 2:
8 For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.



Yes all things are in subjection to God, but don’t stop there in your understanding because the scripture also says we do not yet see that all things are in subjection to God. God calls those things that are not yet done as though they are already done, but that does not mean they are already done. Sin, evil and death still work in the lives of men today.

Quote:
Romans 8;
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it...


When did this happens sis? Was it before Adam sinned or after Adam sinned?


Quote:
Romans 9
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”




Shana Paul gave us the clue of Understanding Romans 9 is in the potter and the clay.

This is a post I have given before in explaining this passage.

I have stated that the answer to what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9 is to be found in the potter and the clay. I posted a small article concerning this but never explained how it relates to what Paul was saying. So I will now endeavour to use both sets of scripture to show the truth that Paul was teaching.

Many read Romans 9 and come away with the idea that God foreknows everything from before creation and as God foreknows everything from before creation nothing can change what God foreknows, thus Gods foreknowledge is static (that is being from before creation), that God makes vessels of dishonour and vessels of honour and that there is no such thing as freewill.

These beliefs do not come to us from scripture; they come to us from philosophy. To be exact they come to us from the philosopher named Plato. Augustine incorporated Plato philosophy into Christianity and since the days of Augustine God's (static) foreknowledge has been taught as the status quo. Because of this teaching, Calvin came to believe that everyone born is predestined by God's foreknowledge to either heaven or hell so there is no such thing as freewill. The beliefs of these 3 men have led many astray from what the scriptures actually state.

So let us look at some scriptures and hopefully people will set aside their preconceived ideas and let the scriptures speak for themselves.

I am going to look at these scripture individually and collectively.

Individually

Romans 9:17-24
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


To understand what Paul is saying here we have to look at the potter and the clay. This is found in Jeremiah 18.

Jeremiah 18:1-6


The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

The Septuagint has verse 4 and the vessel which he was making with his handsfell:

So we see that the vessel God was making fell, so God picks up the clay and makes another vessel out of it.

Now read in Romans 9:21

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of thesame lumpto make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Now keep in mind that it is theSAME LUMP.

The vessel unto dishonour we are told in verse 22 is fitted to destruction.

What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?

Destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi, as most Universalist knows is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.

Fitted is the Greek word katartizo and means to make one as he ought to be made.

So when the scriptures state that the vessels of dishonour are fitted to destruction it is saying that the vessels of dishonour are made how they ought to be made through correction.

What is Gods aim for every vessel?

It is Gods aim that every vessel is made unto honour.

Now remember the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour are theSAME LUMP.

What these scriptures are telling us when we compare Paul with Jeremiah is that God will take man and remould and remould man as many times as it takes to make man into a vessel of honour. Out of the SAME LUMP a vessel of honour and a vessel of dishonour.

Collectively

Jeremiah 18:11-12 states

11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Here we see God pronounces evil against Judah and Jerusalem and the people say there is no hope. They seemed to believe like many reading this that because God prophesied there doom and nothing can change Gods prophecy there was no hope for them so they might as well walk after their own devices. Doom was prophesied, doom must come.

However, is that what God wanted them to believe? Or was He showing them that prophesy can be changed through repentance.

Jeremiah 18:7-10
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Here we can see few things.
Repentance changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Obedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Disobedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy

So how does Jeremiah apply to what Paul told us?

Romans 9 through 11 has to be taken as a whole. And the whole is all about election.

Paul summarizes everything he said in Romans 9 this way

Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


This summery by Paul here he goes on to explain in Romans 11.

Romans 11 tells us that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief and the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith.

The Jews are vessels of dishonor through their unbelief; they are the vessels, which fell from the potter’s hand.

Jeremiah 18:10
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


The Gentiles are vessels of Honor by faith.


The Jews were hardened the Gentiles received mercy.

Ro.11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.


The Jews are the vessels fitted to destruction because of their unbelief. They are the vessels who will be grafted back into the tree if they abide not in their unbelief. Thus, they are the vessels made as they ought to be made through correction, being grafted back in, vessels of honor.


Quote:
Genesis 20:4
Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though [d]blameless? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my [e]hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also [f]kept (restrained) you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her..



Yes this shows God kept Abimelech from sinning against Him. What it does not show is that God planned Abimelech to take Sarah to begin with.

Quote:
Job 12 (13-25)

Ephesians 1:. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 (NAS)



Again sin, evil and death are NOT according to Gods purpose. As those scriptures show Gods purpose is in Christ, everything in those scriptures are talking about in Christ, that is to say God works all things after the counsel of His own will in Christ. Sin, evil and death have no part in Christ; therefore, are not after the counsel of His will.


Quote:
*So if you believe this presented by the apostle Paul below, please respond to the thread if you have thoughts to share on this topic.

2 Timothy 2

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Also if you believe that God's influencing our wills to be in conformity to His will for us, makes us robots, please consider that robots do not have a will of their own as humans do.

Thank you and God bless.



However if God planned everything out and nothing is against His plan then where is it man has a will of their own?

What it boils down to sis is that many believe that because God is sovereign; sin, evil and death must be according to His sovereign plan. However sin, evil and death are not according to Gods sovereign plan they come about by the REJECTION of Gods sovereignty.

And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Speaking of Jesus

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

God is indeed sovereign, but His sovereignty can be rejected by man and when this happens sin, evil and death reign
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2012, 10:40 AM
 
Location: NC
11,624 posts, read 9,023,507 times
Reputation: 1274
Thanks Pneuma, I'll be back on to respond to what was posted, Lord willing, but in response to this for now:

Quote:
Agreed. However, this seems a strange thing for you to say. For if God is sovereign after your understanding why does He seek to influence our wills? Would not everything be exactly as He planned it to be?
I believe that everything is exactly as He planned it to be and that God is omniscient. I believe that all is out of God (Romans 11:36) and that evil and sin are in the creation as a part of His design and according to what He has purposed in the creation. I believe that His acting on our wills to bring about what He has purposed for us is a part of the plan. Ths is part of His work. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-02-2012 at 11:34 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2012, 03:15 PM
 
23,092 posts, read 11,206,611 times
Reputation: 3906
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Micro sovereignty or macro sovereignty?
Agreed
God gave man dominion; one cannot have dominion unless one is sovereign.
Agreed
Agreed, but from a different perspective. God through His sons is actively destroying the works of the devil. God is not involved or active in sin, or evil.
Agreed. However, this seems a strange thing for you to say. For if God is sovereign after your understanding why does He seek to influence our wills? Would not everything be exactly as He planned it to be? Therefore, the sins and evils of this world are according to Gods influence. Sorry sis I don’t buy that, God has nothing to do with sin and evil.
Agreed. However, Gods purpose has nothing to do with sin and evil. This is an error so many seem to have fallen into; thinking because God does everything according to His purpose sin and evil must be according to Gods purpose. Yet God’s purpose is to destroy sin and evil and it is in this perspective that God influences man according to what He has purposed.
Rejection of God is not according to His purpose Shana.
Agreed, however this is also a strange thing for you to say. If sin and evil is according to Gods purpose then God’s will is already and has always been done in creation.
That scenario does not fit your understanding of everything that happens is according to God purpose. You start out by saying A mother sees her child heading out into the busy street, and calls to the child to come but, but the child, in his free will chooses to run out into the busy street anyway. If everything is according to God purpose as you believe would it not then follow that God put the child inharm’s wayto begin with?
No, however if it was the mother will for the child to run into the street to begin with something is definitely wrong with the mother. A child does not need to be burned by fire in order to understand fire burns.
No, but again that is a strange thing for you to say if everything that happens in man’s life is according to God’s purpose.
No it is not wrong, God’s purpose will be done on earth just as it is in heaven. However, His will is not yet being done on earth. This alone should tell us that not everything that happens in this life is according to His purpose.
No it is not wrong for God to do this. However, to pursued one to sin and do evil is defiantly not according to love.
Agreed, but again this is a strange thing for you to say as you also believe everything that happens is according to His purpose.
Yes all things are in subjection to God, but don’t stop there in your understanding because the scripture also says we do not yet see that all things are in subjection to God. God calls those things that are not yet done as though they are already done, but that does not mean they are already done. Sin, evil and death still work in the lives of men today.
When did this happens sis? Was it before Adam sinned or after Adam sinned?
Shana Paul gave us the clue of Understanding Romans 9 is in the potter and the clay.
This is a post I have given before in explaining this passage.
I have stated that the answer to what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9 is to be found in the potter and the clay. I posted a small article concerning this but never explained how it relates to what Paul was saying. So I will now endeavour to use both sets of scripture to show the truth that Paul was teaching.
Many read Romans 9 and come away with the idea that God foreknows everything from before creation and as God foreknows everything from before creation nothing can change what God foreknows, thus Gods foreknowledge is static (that is being from before creation), that God makes vessels of dishonour and vessels of honour and that there is no such thing as freewill.
These beliefs do not come to us from scripture; they come to us from philosophy. To be exact they come to us from the philosopher named Plato. Augustine incorporated Plato philosophy into Christianity and since the days of Augustine God's (static) foreknowledge has been taught as the status quo. Because of this teaching, Calvin came to believe that everyone born is predestined by God's foreknowledge to either heaven or hell so there is no such thing as freewill. The beliefs of these 3 men have led many astray from what the scriptures actually state.
So let us look at some scriptures and hopefully people will set aside their preconceived ideas and let the scriptures speak for themselves.
I am going to look at these scripture individually and collectively.

Individually

Romans 9:17-24
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


To understand what Paul is saying here we have to look at the potter and the clay. This is found in Jeremiah 18.

Jeremiah 18:1-6


The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

The Septuagint has verse 4 and the vessel which he was making with his handsfell:

So we see that the vessel God was making fell, so God picks up the clay and makes another vessel out of it.

Now read in Romans 9:21

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of thesame lumpto make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Now keep in mind that it is theSAME LUMP.

The vessel unto dishonour we are told in verse 22 is fitted to destruction.

What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?

Destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi, as most Universalist knows is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.

Fitted is the Greek word katartizo and means to make one as he ought to be made.

So when the scriptures state that the vessels of dishonour are fitted to destruction it is saying that the vessels of dishonour are made how they ought to be made through correction.

What is Gods aim for every vessel?

It is Gods aim that every vessel is made unto honour.

Now remember the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour are theSAME LUMP.

What these scriptures are telling us when we compare Paul with Jeremiah is that God will take man and remould and remould man as many times as it takes to make man into a vessel of honour. Out of the SAME LUMP a vessel of honour and a vessel of dishonour.

Collectively

Jeremiah 18:11-12 states

11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Here we see God pronounces evil against Judah and Jerusalem and the people say there is no hope. They seemed to believe like many reading this that because God prophesied there doom and nothing can change Gods prophecy there was no hope for them so they might as well walk after their own devices. Doom was prophesied, doom must come.

However, is that what God wanted them to believe? Or was He showing them that prophesy can be changed through repentance.

Jeremiah 18:7-10
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Here we can see few things.
Repentance changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Obedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Disobedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy

So how does Jeremiah apply to what Paul told us?

Romans 9 through 11 has to be taken as a whole. And the whole is all about election.

Paul summarizes everything he said in Romans 9 this way

Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


This summery by Paul here he goes on to explain in Romans 11.

Romans 11 tells us that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief and the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith.

The Jews are vessels of dishonor through their unbelief; they are the vessels, which fell from the potter’s hand.

Jeremiah 18:10
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


The Gentiles are vessels of Honor by faith.


The Jews were hardened the Gentiles received mercy.

Ro.11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

The Jews are the vessels fitted to destruction because of their unbelief. They are the vessels who will be grafted back into the tree if they abide not in their unbelief. Thus, they are the vessels made as they ought to be made through correction, being grafted back in, vessels of honor.

Yes this shows God kept Abimelech from sinning against Him. What it does not show is that God planned Abimelech to take Sarah to begin with.

Again sin, evil and death are NOT according to Gods purpose. As those scriptures show Gods purpose is in Christ, everything in those scriptures are talking about in Christ, that is to say God works all things after the counsel of His own will in Christ. Sin, evil and death have no part in Christ; therefore, are not after the counsel of His will.
However if God planned everything out and nothing is against His plan then where is it man has a will of their own?

What it boils down to sis is that many believe that because God is sovereign; sin, evil and death must be according to His sovereign plan. However sin, evil and death are not according to Gods sovereign plan they come about by the REJECTION of Gods sovereignty.

And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Speaking of Jesus

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

God is indeed sovereign, but His sovereignty can be rejected by man and when this happens sin, evil and death reign
This is an absolutely marvelous study and explanation, pneuma. The Holy Spirit is guiding a great work in you. Praise the Lord! Shana understands, but has been confused by not accepting that God's sovereignty means He can WILL that WE have sovereignty over the earth. Knowing the outcomes does not mean planning them . . . just allowing them out of respect for our sovereignty. It is His WILL that we have sovereignty so we can voluntarily choose out of "love of God and each other" . . . not fear or coercion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2012, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,225 posts, read 1,630,157 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Thanks Pneuma, I'll be back on to respond to what was posted, Lord willing, but in response to this for now:



I believe that everything is exactly as He planned it to be and that God is omniscient. I believe that all is out of God (Romans 11:36) and that evil and sin are in the creation as a part of His design and according to what He has purposed in the creation. I believe that His acting on our wills to bring about what He has purposed for us is a part of the plan. Ths is part of His work. God bless.

Hi Shana, I realise you believe this sis, however it is not really scriptural. Yes I know scripture sometimes seems to be saying these things, especially when reading the OT. Yet those of old did not understand the Father, tis one of the reason Jesus came to reveal Him. They like many today speak of the Father as doing evil and good, Jesus corrected them of this error when He said a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit and we are to make either the tree good and its fruit good or we are to make the tree evil and its fruit evil. Those who Jesus revealed the Father to also corrects their understanding of the Father when they said love worketh no evil, love thinketh no evil, God is love.

Sis the understanding of old must be done away with, we must learn to be corrected through Christ who is our example.

Where in the life of Christ do you see Him using sin and evil for a greater good?

Where do you see in the life of Christ using sin and evil as part of His purpose?

If sin and evil are a part of Gods purpose why are we told to resist them? Would that not make resisting sin and evil actually resisting God's plan for us?

Why are we said to be disobedient?

Why does it say sin is of the devil?

Anyway sis I will await your further response.

Keep in mind this scripture.

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2012, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,225 posts, read 1,630,157 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is an absolutely marvelous study and explanation, pneuma. The Holy Spirit is guiding a great work in you. Praise the Lord! Shana understands, but has been confused by not accepting that God's sovereignty means He can WILL that WE have sovereignty over the earth. Knowing the outcomes does not mean planning them . . . just allowing them out of respect for our sovereignty. It is His WILL that we have sovereignty so we can voluntarily choose out of "love of God and each other" . . . not fear or coercion.
Thanks brother, I can only pray other will see it.

God bless
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2012, 04:16 PM
 
7,469 posts, read 2,666,982 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Thanks brother, I can only pray others will see it.

God bless
There are those who understand, they just see things from a different perception.
Stimulating, to say the least, as the Prodigal Son and Father come to mind.

God Bless you all over this next year.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2012, 06:21 PM
 
Location: NC
11,624 posts, read 9,023,507 times
Reputation: 1274
Hi Pneuma, I know that we have been through this many times in the past, but I will share my beliefs again and we will probably have to agree to disagree again I wasn't able to get back on earlier because school is starting up again and and so there is where I'll be now most of the time! And my computer is having problems.


Quote:

Quote:
God is the Creator of the universe and is sovereign over the creation
Quote:

Micro sovereignty or macro sovereignty?

Both, in every respect because man is the creature and God is the Creator. They are not on the same level. Man has a God that he is subject to and God does not. God does not submit His will to man's will. There are many instances in the scriptures where God is actively influencing the wills of men. It isn't about respecting our wills, but about bringing our wills into conformity to His.





Quote:
God has all power


Quote:
Agreed


Quote:

Quote:
Man is a creature and is not sovereign
Quote:
God gave man dominion; one cannot have dominion unless one is sovereign.


Man has dominion and is not sovereign over the Creator, though. Someone who owns land may give someone else dominion over the land, however the land still belongs to the landowner, who in this case is God.





Quote:
God is actively involved in what happens in the creation

Quote:
Agreed, but from a different perspective. God through His sons is actively destroying the works of the devil. God is not involved or active in sin, or evil.



I believe that the scriptures teach that all is out of God, and this to me, means that all is out of God. It does not mean that God is evil or sinful but that these forces/powers have a purpose in the creation.
.
References: Roman 11:36, John 1, 1 Corinthians 8:6





Quote:

Quote:
God actively seeks to influence our wills

Quote:
Agreed. However, this seems a strange thing for you to say. For if God is sovereign after your understanding why does He seek to influence our wills? Would not everything be exactly as He planned it to be? Therefore, the sins and evils of this world are according to Gods influence. Sorry sis I don’t buy that, God has nothing to do with sin and evil.



He seeks to influence our will because it is all a part of the process of us growing and learning about Him and about our relationship with Him. It is about Him developing qualities in us as I do not believe that we are a finished product nor that Adam was a finished product when God created Him.

Quote:


Quote:
God actually influences the wills of men according to what He has purposed

Quote:
Agreed. However, Gods purpose has nothing to do with sin and evil. This is an error so many seem to have fallen into; thinking because God does everything according to His purpose sin and evil must be according to Gods purpose. Yet God’s purpose is to destroy sin and evil and it is in this perspective that God influences man according to what He has purposed.



I believe that God's ultimate purpose is to destroy sin and evil. After their purpose in the creation is done, they will no longer exist as Jesus is to abolish all rule power and authority and the last one being death. If all is out of God, then I do believe that this means all.

Quote:

Quote:
God temporarily allows or permits men to resist His will according to His purpose
Quote:

Quote:
Rejection of God is not according to His purpose Shana.


Again we will have to disagree on this. I believe that everything that happened, happened because all is out of God and He knows all things. Do you believe that what happened in the garden was outside of the knowledge of God and that there was some kind of mistake that took place? Who placed the serpent in the picture and who created the serpent in the beginning? Even if you believe that the earth "became" void and that something happened before Adam was created, where did this situation come from?


Quote:

Quote:
God's will will ultimately be done in the creation
Quote:
Quote:
Agreed, however this is also a strange thing for you to say. If sin and evil is according to Gods purpose then God’s will is already and has always been done in creation.
Quote:
Yes, I believe that His intention is being done and has already been done, although we may not have been aware of this. He has often hidden His ultimate intention, say for example, what Paul expresses in Ephesians 1. Sin and evil are a part of the plan, but they will not exist forever. When they have served their purpose, they will no longer exist. I believe that the ultimate goal is the restoration of all things to Himself. (Colossians 1)




Quote:

I posted this in another thread because someone suggested that if God acts on our "free wills" this is not indicative of love. So I asked:


*Would this be love?

A mother sees her child heading out into the busy street, and calls to the child to come but, but the child, in his free will chooses to run out into the busy street anyway. The mother dashes out and grabs the child out of the busy street and takes him to safety. The mother explains to the child the dangers of running out into the busy street, teaching the child the danger associated with his actions and the child learns what could have happened if he had stayed in the street. The next time he does not run out into the street because now he knows better.Was love expressed by the mother who grabbed the child and taught the child, seeking to change the child's will? We seek to change our children's wills as we teach them each day if we are good parents and want the best for our children.

Quote:

That scenario does not fit your understanding of everything that happens is according to God purpose. You start out by saying A mother sees her child heading out into the busy street, and calls to the child to come but, but the child, in his free will chooses to run out into the busy street anyway. If everything is according to God purpose as you believe would it not then follow that God put the child inharm’s wayto begin with?

No, however if it was the mother will for the child to run into the street to begin with something is definitely wrong with the mother. A child does not need to be burned by fire in order to understand fire burns.


Here the example, to me, no longer applies in that to a mother, sending a child into the street, which is going to harm or mean death to the child ultimately if the child is hit. The mother's purpose in sending a child into the street would be wrong, evil. God, on the other hand, often uses "evil" for His own purpose with a view to a higher pupose. For example, God loved His only begotten Son, yet sent Him to be killed, for a higher purpose. And I believe that our experience with evil and sin will result in a higher purpose, as has been shared. He is transforming us into something greater. If God were to let this experience of evil and sin be all that there is to our experience, then no, this would not be love. What are we developing as God leads us through this journey often riddled with suffering and pain? Some things I believe that we can only learn through this experience are compassion, forgiveness, agape love, trust, perserverance, dependency, humility, empathy, learning to choose and love righteousness over evil, striving for holiness, an awareness of the nature and extent of God's love for us, in that when we were sinners, enemies of God, He reached down and saves us. We know and experience Him as our Savior and He will be glorified in this.




Quote:
Quote:
Is it wrong for God to seek to change our wills and even to influence our wills so that they are in conformity to His will?

Is it wrong for God to seek to change our wills and even to influence our wills so that they are in conformity to His will?



Quote:
No, but again that is a strange thing for you to say if everything that happens in man’s life is according to God’s purpose.


No, it isn't strange Pnuema. God uses opposites to bring about His purposes. He casts us as His enemies and then shows us and the heavenly powers, how He remakes, brings about the transformation. He, and He alone, is changing, transforming His enemies into His friends, and thus we see the glory of God being manifested, the power of God displayed, the nature of love of God revealed.



Quote:
Quote:
Is it wrong for Him, who is the Creator and has sovereign power, to be successful in this?

Quote:
No it is not wrong, God’s purpose will be done on earth just as it is in heaven. However, His will is not yet being done on earth. This alone should tell us that not everything that happens in this life is according to His purpose.


His revealed will is not being done, Pnuema, but His ultimate intention is being done. We just don't see this from our limited perspective.





Quote:
Quote:*My question is here - Do you believe that persuading someone or convincing someone is wrong for one to do and is it wrong for God to do this? Are this against your view of what love is?
Quote:
*My question is here - Do you believe that persuading someone or convincing someone is wrong for one to do and is it wrong for God to do this? Are this against your view of what love is?



Quote:
No it is not wrong for God to do this. However, to pursued one to sin and do evil is defiantly not according to love.


Well, I am glad that you agree with my question. We'll have to agree to disagree on the other part



Quote:
I believe that God actively influences our wills and also that ultimately, no one can resist whatever He purposes to happen.
Quote:
I believe that God actively influences our wills and also that ultimately, no one can resist whatever He purposes to happen.
Quote:
Agreed, but again this is a strange thing for you to say as you also believe everything that happens is according to His purpose.



I believe that no one can resist what He ultimately intends to happen.
WE may not be aware of what is happening but he works all things according what His ultimate purpose or intention is....working behind the scenes, which is not playing is games as Mystic might see it. He has a goal in mind, and He is working it out influencing our wills in the process to be conformed to His will. Are we puppets on a string? No, we have wills to reject but just as the mother can effectively influence a child's will so can God and even more so.

Quote:
My other references on this subject are just a few scriptures which I do believe speak to God's sovereignty as far as man's will is concerned.




Hebrews 2:
8 For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
Quote:
Hebrews 2:
8 For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

Quote:
Yes all things are in subjection to God, but don’t stop there in your understanding because the scripture also says we do not yet see that all things are in subjection to God. God calls those things that are not yet done as though they are already done, but that does not mean they are already done. Sin, evil and death still work in the lives of men today.


I agree with you. This is what is presented in the scriptures. I shared this to show that eventually all things will be subjected to Him, including all wills.







Quote:
Romans 8;
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it...


Quote:
When did this happens sis? Was it before Adam sinned or after Adam sinned?
I believe before since I believe that God is a God who declares things from beginning to end. He has all knowledge and knew that would happen to the creation.


Quote:
Romans 9
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”



Quote:
Shana Paul gave us the clue of Understanding Romans 9 is in the potter and the clay.

This is a post I have given before in explaining this passage.

I have stated that the answer to what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9 is to be found in the potter and the clay. I posted a small article concerning this but never explained how it relates to what Paul was saying. So I will now endeavour to use both sets of scripture to show the truth that Paul was teaching.

Many read Romans 9 and come away with the idea that God foreknows everything from before creation and as God foreknows everything from before creation nothing can change what God foreknows, thus Gods foreknowledge is static (that is being from before creation), that God makes vessels of dishonour and vessels of honour and that there is no such thing as freewill.

These beliefs do not come to us from scripture; they come to us from philosophy. To be exact they come to us from the philosopher named Plato. Augustine incorporated Plato philosophy into Christianity and since the days of Augustine God's (static) foreknowledge has been taught as the status quo. Because of this teaching, Calvin came to believe that everyone born is predestined by God's foreknowledge to either heaven or hell so there is no such thing as freewill. The beliefs of these 3 men have led many astray from what the scriptures actually state.

So let us look at some scriptures and hopefully people will set aside their preconceived ideas and let the scriptures speak for themselves.

I am going to look at these scripture individually and collectively.

Individually

Romans 9:17-24
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


To understand what Paul is saying here we have to look at the potter and the clay. This is found in Jeremiah 18.

Jeremiah 18:1-6


The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

The Septuagint has verse 4 and the vessel which he was making with his handsfell:

So we see that the vessel God was making fell, so God picks up the clay and makes another vessel out of it.

Now read in Romans 9:21

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of thesame lumpto make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Now keep in mind that it is theSAME LUMP.

The vessel unto dishonour we are told in verse 22 is fitted to destruction.

What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?

Destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi, as most Universalist knows is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.

Fitted is the Greek word katartizo and means to make one as he ought to be made.

So when the scriptures state that the vessels of dishonour are fitted to destruction it is saying that the vessels of dishonour are made how they ought to be made through correction.

What is Gods aim for every vessel?

It is Gods aim that every vessel is made unto honour.

Now remember the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour are theSAME LUMP.

What these scriptures are telling us when we compare Paul with Jeremiah is that God will take man and remould and remould man as many times as it takes to make man into a vessel of honour. Out of the SAME LUMP a vessel of honour and a vessel of dishonour.

Collectively

Jeremiah 18:11-12 states

11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Here we see God pronounces evil against Judah and Jerusalem and the people say there is no hope. They seemed to believe like many reading this that because God prophesied there doom and nothing can change Gods prophecy there was no hope for them so they might as well walk after their own devices. Doom was prophesied, doom must come.

However, is that what God wanted them to believe? Or was He showing them that prophesy can be changed through repentance.

Jeremiah 18:7-10
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Here we can see few things.
Repentance changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Obedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Disobedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy

So how does Jeremiah apply to what Paul told us?

Romans 9 through 11 has to be taken as a whole. And the whole is all about election.

Paul summarizes everything he said in Romans 9 this way

Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


This summery by Paul here he goes on to explain in Romans 11.

Romans 11 tells us that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief and the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith.

The Jews are vessels of dishonor through their unbelief; they are the vessels, which fell from the potter’s hand.

Jeremiah 18:10
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


The Gentiles are vessels of Honor by faith.


The Jews were hardened the Gentiles received mercy.

Ro.11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.


The Jews are the vessels fitted to destruction because of their unbelief. They are the vessels who will be grafted back into the tree if they abide not in their unbelief. Thus, they are the vessels made as they ought to be made through correction, being grafted back in, vessels of honor.




Quote:

[/quote] I agree with your statments on Romans. I just believe that even though the clay "fell" and was marred in the Potter's hands, this does not mean that the Potter didn't know that it would be marred when he was making the vessel or that He did not know that the people would or would not repent. What is Paul teaching thsew people? That God is sovereign and that He can do whatever He desires with the clay, whether causeing to fall, marring it, or by remaking it. He is in total control and they needed to recognize this.


Genesis 20:4
Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though [d]blameless? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my [e]hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also [f]kept (restrained) you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her..



Quote:
Yes this shows God kept Abimelech from sinning against Him. What it does not show is that God planned Abimelech to take Sarah to begin with.

Quote:

I shared this to show that God influences the will's of men, interfering in what is believed to be free will.
Job 12 (13-25)

Ephesians 1:. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 (NAS)



Quote:
Again sin, evil and death are NOT according to Gods purpose. As those scriptures show Gods purpose is in Christ, everything in those scriptures are talking about in Christ, that is to say God works all things after the counsel of His own will in Christ. Sin, evil and death have no part in Christ; therefore, are not after the counsel of His will.








Quote:
However if God planned everything out and nothing is against His plan then where is it man has a will of their own?


Man has a will of his or her own, however, this will is not ultimately free. It is subject to the influences of God. It is also enslaved to sin until the Son sets a person free from this slavery.


What it boils down to sis is that many believe that because God is sovereign; sin, evil and death must be according to His sovereign plan. However sin, evil and death are not according to Gods sovereign plan they come about by the REJECTION of Gods sovereignty.

And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Speaking of Jesus

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

God is indeed sovereign, but His sovereignty can be rejected by man and when this happens sin, evil and death reign



Again, we will have to disagree on the elements of sin and evil as this relates to God's Sovereignty, intentions, and revealed purposes. But thank you for sharing your beliefs on the thread. Here are scrlptures which I believe point to what I have shared. God bless.

Romans 11 (caps from the translation)

33 Oh, the depth of the riches [l]both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM [m]THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory [n]forever. Amen. (NAS)


John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [b]comprehend it. (NAS)

1 John 3
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will [i]assure our heart before Him 20 [j]in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things

1 Corinthians 8
For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Isaiah 48
“Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are named Israel
And who came forth from the [a]loins of Judah,
Who swear by the name of the LORD
And invoke the God of Israel,
But not in truth nor in righteousness.
2 “For they call themselves after the holy city
And lean on the God of Israel;
The LORD of hosts is His name.
3 “I declared the former things long ago
And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.
4 “Because I know that you are [b]obstinate,
And your neck is an iron sinew
And your forehead bronze,
5 Therefore I declared them to you long ago,
Before [c]they took place I proclaimed them to you


Isaiah 46:8 “Remember this, and be [g]assured;
Recall it to [h]mind, you transgressors.
9 “Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of [i]My purpose from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it.


God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-02-2012 at 06:54 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2012, 07:52 PM
 
23,092 posts, read 11,206,611 times
Reputation: 3906
There is no amount of intellectual rationalization or blind faith in God's sovereignty that would enable me to accept a God who planned the rapes, tortures and deaths of innocent children or the starvation of millions of children or any of the myriad evils of life on earth to achieve ANY purpose! It is hard enough to accept that God allows it because He has given us Dominion. Any such God using evil for ANY purpose is unworthy of love or appreciation or worship or anything but complete condemnation and rejection, period. Sorry . . . but such a God is NOT love and such actions would be unconscionable. Fortunately, the God I encountered would NEVER be involved in such atrocities in any way shape or form. I am unable even to agree to disagree with such an abominable view of our loving God . . . no matter how sincerely held in love of God and willingness to give Him the benefit of the doubt that Evil could somehow be Good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:10 AM.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top