God's Sovereign Will/Man's Limited Will (beliefs, scriptures, Holy Spirit, Jesus)

[ShanaBrown]

Hi, I have been involved in interesting discussions in which the topic of free will has come up and I realize that many believers cherish this belief or view that God cannot and will not interfere with is to be man's free will. I am trying to understand the belief or view that God, as revealed in the scriptures, does not interfere with what is believed to be man's free will and also to share my beliefs on the subject.

I posted this thread for anyone who holds to the belief that the scriptures are the inspired words of God, so please refrain from the discussions if this is not your belief. I would like to explore scriptures which do reveal that God at times, does act on, interfere with, influence, the will of humans.

I will say at the start that I do believe that man has a will and makes choices but my belief is that this will is limited, restrained, influenced by outside forces, and is not ultimately free. And I base this belief on what I understand to be revealed in the scriptures. So if you would like to discuss this respectfully, please post.

Here is are my beliefs on the subject:

God is the Creator of the universe and is sovereign over the creation
God has all power
Man is a creature and is not sovereign
Man does not have all power
God is actively involved in what happens in the creation
God actively seeks to influence our wills
God actually influences the wills of men according to what He has purposed
God temporarily allows or permits men to resist His will according to His purpose
God's will will ultimately be done in the creation

I posted this in another thread because someone suggested that if God acts on our "free wills" this is not indicative of love. So I asked:


*Would this be love?

A mother sees her child heading out into the busy street, and calls to the child to come but, but the child, in his free will chooses to run out into the busy street anyway. The mother dashes out and grabs the child out of the busy street and takes him to safety. The mother explains to the child the dangers of running out into the busy street, teaching the child the danger associated with his actions and the child learns what could have happened if he had stayed in the street. The next time he does not run out into the street because now he knows better.Was love expressed by the mother who grabbed the child and taught the child, seeking to change the child's will? We seek to change our children's wills as we teach them each day if we are good parents and want the best for our children.

*My questions were:

Is this wrong for the mother to be effective in bringing about a change in the child's will?
Is it wrong for God to seek to change our wills and even to influence our wills so that they are in conformity to His will?
Is it wrong for Him, who is the Creator and has sovereign power, to be successful in this?



*There were no responses to the questions.



Now to share some definitons relating to this topic:
Ref: Dictionary.com

persuade:

Synonyms 1. urge, influence, move, entice, impel. Persuade, induce imply influencing someone's thoughts or actions. They are used today mainly in the sense of winning over a person to a certain course of action: It was I who persuaded him to call a doctor. I induced him to do it. They differ in that persuade suggests appealing more to the reason and understanding: I persuaded him to go back to his wife (although it is often lightly used: Can't I persuade you to stay to supper? ); induce emphasizes only the idea of successful influence, whether achieved by argument or by promise of reward: What can I say that will induce you to stay at your job? Owing to this idea of compensation, induce may be used in reference to the influence of factors as well as of persons: The prospect of a raise in salary was what induced him to stay.

convince:
verb (used with object), -vinced, -vinc·ing.
1.
to move by argument or evidence to belief, agreement, consent, or a course of action: to convince a jury of his guilt; A test drive will convince you that this car handles well.
2.
to persuade; cajole: We finally convinced them to have dinner with us.



*My question is here - Do you believe that persuading someone or convincing someone is wrong for one to do and is it wrong for God to do this? Are this against your view of what love is?


I believe that God actively influences our wills and also that ultimately, no one can resist whatever He purposes to happen.


My other references on this subject are just a few scriptures which I do believe speak to God's sovereignty as far as man's will is concerned.




Hebrews 2:
8 For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

Romans 8;
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it...

Romans 9
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”

Genesis 20:4
Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though [d]blameless? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my [e]hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also [f]kept (restrained) you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her..

Job 12 (13-25)

Ephesians 1:. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 (NAS)


*So if you believe this presented by the apostle Paul below, please respond to the thread if you have thoughts to share on this topic.

2 Timothy 2

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Also if you believe that God's influencing our wills to be in conformity to His will for us, makes us robots, please consider that robots do not have a will of their own as humans do.

Thank you and God bless.

[Heartsong]

To be succinct, the doG wags the tail, not the other way around. The tail can do nothing of its own volition. Jesus taught this principle, though he did not use the same exact illustration as I am now using.

[ShanaBrown]

To be succinct, the doG wags the tail, not the other way around. The tail can do nothing of its own volition. Jesus taught this principle, though he did not use the same exact illustration as I am now using.

That's a good illustration. God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

*So if you believe this presented by the apostle Paul below, please respond to the thread if you have thoughts to share on this topic.

2 Timothy 2

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


God bless.

[AnywhereElse]

I am not really sure what sort of posts you are looking for here but am intrigued. I truly believe that God has given man free will and that is why some have chosen to align themselves with Satan, etc. but I also believe this: Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. And I wonder if that doesn't tie in with the way that you are expressing your thoughts on this? Basically, having put my trust in God, he directs my paths maybe steering me in a better choice? If I decide to defy him though, I believe I can get it done under free will. Just asking.

[ShanaBrown]

Thanks, AnywhereElse, I agree that God directs the paths of believers and is leading, guiding us. Do you believe that God has influenced you to put your trust in Him?

I believe that God is influencing our wills through His Holy Spirit, the scriptures, things that happen to us in life, for example. I believe that He is actively doing this although we may not be aware of this. Say for example, the scripture in Ephesians states that He works all things according to the counsel of His will, and I emphasize all things. So to me, this even means, whatever may be contrary to His will at the time. What this says to me is that He is actually involved, engaged in working all things according to whatever He has purposed. And if this is true, are our wills actually free from this? What do you think of this? God bless.

[Ilene Wright]

Well you know how I believe now but before, as a Universalist, I believed the same as you Shana. If there is a God, he is sovereign and in control of EVERYTHING. There is no free will, it's all been planned out.

[TheoGeek]

Yes. God is sovereign over all creation. He does choose to save some, by regenerating them and opening their eyes--allowing them to trust in Christ. Man in his natural state cannot do good.


This is clearly taught in Romans 8-9.

[ShanaBrown]

Thank you for sharing, Ilene. God bless.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Hi, I have been involved in interesting discussions in which the topic of free will has come up and I realize that many believers cherish this belief or view that God cannot and will not interfere with is to be man's free will. I am trying to understand the belief or view that God, as revealed in the scriptures, does not interfere with what is believed to be man's free will and also to share my beliefs on the subject.

I posted this thread for anyone who holds to the belief that the scriptures are the inspired words of God, so please refrain from the discussions if this is not your belief. I would like to explore scriptures which do reveal that God at times, does act on, interfere with, influence, the will of humans.

I will say at the start that I do believe that man has a will and makes choices but my belief is that this will is limited, restrained, influenced by outside forces, and is not ultimately free. And I base this belief on what I understand to be revealed in the scriptures. So if you would like to discuss this respectfully, please post.

Here is are my beliefs on the subject:

God is the Creator of the universe and is sovereign over the creation
God has all power
Man is a creature and is not sovereign
Man does not have all power
God is actively involved in what happens in the creation
God actively seeks to influence our wills
God actually influences the wills of men according to what He has purposed
God temporarily allows or permits men to resist His will according to His purpose
God's will will ultimately be done in the creation

I posted this in another thread because someone suggested that if God acts on our "free wills" this is not indicative of love. So I asked:


*Would this be love?

A mother sees her child heading out into the busy street, and calls to the child to come but, but the child, in his free will chooses to run out into the busy street anyway. The mother dashes out and grabs the child out of the busy street and takes him to safety. The mother explains to the child the dangers of running out into the busy street, teaching the child the danger associated with his actions and the child learns what could have happened if he had stayed in the street. The next time he does not run out into the street because now he knows better.Was love expressed by the mother who grabbed the child and taught the child, seeking to change the child's will? We seek to change our children's wills as we teach them each day if we are good parents and want the best for our children.

*My questions were:

Is this wrong for the mother to be effective in bringing about a change in the child's will?
Is it wrong for God to seek to change our wills and even to influence our wills so that they are in conformity to His will?
Is it wrong for Him, who is the Creator and has sovereign power, to be successful in this?



*There were no responses to the questions.



Now to share some definitons relating to this topic:
Ref: Dictionary.com

persuade:

Synonyms 1. urge, influence, move, entice, impel. Persuade, induce imply influencing someone's thoughts or actions. They are used today mainly in the sense of winning over a person to a certain course of action: It was I who persuaded him to call a doctor. I induced him to do it. They differ in that persuade suggests appealing more to the reason and understanding: I persuaded him to go back to his wife (although it is often lightly used: Can't I persuade you to stay to supper? ); induce emphasizes only the idea of successful influence, whether achieved by argument or by promise of reward: What can I say that will induce you to stay at your job? Owing to this idea of compensation, induce may be used in reference to the influence of factors as well as of persons: The prospect of a raise in salary was what induced him to stay.

convince:
verb (used with object), -vinced, -vinc·ing.
1.
to move by argument or evidence to belief, agreement, consent, or a course of action: to convince a jury of his guilt; A test drive will convince you that this car handles well.
2.
to persuade; cajole: We finally convinced them to have dinner with us.



*My question is here - Do you believe that persuading someone or convincing someone is wrong for one to do and is it wrong for God to do this? Are this against your view of what love is?


I believe that God actively influences our wills and also that ultimately, no one can resist whatever He purposes to happen.


My other references on this subject are just a few scriptures which I do believe speak to God's sovereignty as far as man's will is concerned.




Hebrews 2:
8 For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

Romans 8;
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it...

Romans 9
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”

Genesis 20:4
Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though [d]blameless? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my [e]hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also [f]kept (restrained) you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her..

Job 12 (13-25)

Ephesians 1:. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 (NAS)


*So if you believe this presented by the apostle Paul below, please respond to the thread if you have thoughts to share on this topic.

2 Timothy 2

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


Also if you believe that God's influencing our wills to be in conformity to His will for us, makes us robots, please consider that robots do not have a will of their own as humans do.

Thank you and God bless.

I know we agreed to disagree in that other thread, Shana . . . but I wanted to reassure you that I believe everything you have said in this thread . . . including 2 Timothy 2:16-17. We differ only in that you think this means God planned and controls or demands or forces all outcomes just because He KNOWS what they are. I do not. Knowing what we will choose does not mean deciding what we will choose. Influences are unavoidable and have nothing to do with whether or not free will exists . . . as long as the ability exists to choose which influences to follow or ignore.

Dominion means we have been granted sovereignty over the earth to choose which influences to follow or ignore. God's sovereignty IS superior . . . but He has CHOSEN to let us have free will subject to ALL the influences, circumstances, human desires, physical laws, etc. INCLUDING the guidance and urgings of the Holy Spirit within. This means that while there have been and will be the inevitable human failures and rebellions producing evil outcomes . . . eventually His influence will win out over our free will . . . but in God's good time and not by force. All IMO, of course. God Bless.