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View Poll Results: Is this belief blaspheme?
Yes 12 75.00%
No 4 25.00%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-18-2012, 11:38 AM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,087,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post



What is not possible with man is possible with God. Just because you cannot understand how one can understand love without understanding evil does not mean one cannot understand love without evil.
God cannot do the illogical. God cannot make 2+2=5. Disagree?

Quote:
Again do you do that which is evil to your loved ones?
Of course not. There is plenty of evil around that I have to protect them from already. Plenty of evil things already happen and they have to learn to forgive people of. Plenty of tempting evil things already happen and they have to learn to not delight in.

Because of the evil that already exists, they will learn how to love. So of course I do not do evil to my loved ones.

On the other hand I do encourage them to exercise. Is that evil of me because I want their muscles to hurt? That is what you are suggesting. Purposeless evil. But God is not purposeless.

Quote:
Sorry but one does not have to understand evil to understand love. What! are we suppose to hate our children first so that they can understand that we really love them? Come on, love produces love, hate produces hate, hate does not produce love.

It simply boggles my mind the reasoning some of you guys put forth.
No we do not hate our children. You are the one arguing the ridiculous here. Why not refute some of the actual arguments I made?

Again, love, by definition, REQUIRES AN UNDERSTANDING OF EVIL. YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THIS FACT pneuma.

Love is not delighting in EVIL.
Love is protecting someone from EVIL.
Love is forgiving someone of EVIL.

Without EVIL we would not understand these aspects of LOVE.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:43 AM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,087,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Alright my friend, blessings from God to you also...

Give Pink's: Sovereignty of God (see pdf link in a previous post) for a look. Let me know your thoughts on it. I read the book when I was quite young, 17 or so, and thought Pink had a rather engaging way of presenting the subject, but haven't really thought much more about it.
Pink's Sovereignty of God is quite good, at least give it a read for a different perspective if you haven't, even if you don't agree. Perspective is good.

The main problem with it is he tries to justify why it would be OK for God to let people suffer forever (classical eternal torment theology).
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Pink's Sovereignty of God is quite good, at least give it a read for a different perspective if you haven't, even if you don't agree. Perspective is good.

The main problem with it is he tries to justify why it would be OK for God to let people suffer forever (classical eternal torment theology).
Exactly, Pink only takes he's scriptural reasoning so far and leaves much to be desired out of it. He seems rather perplexed when it comes to God's authority, ability, will and desire to save all His creation, as Paul clearly states God will do (1 Tim 2:4).
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:55 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
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I'm done with this thread. I am actually flabbergasted by some of the comments on here,especially the belief of having to know evil to good,and God being behind the evil we know,so we know what is good. It's a doctrine of Calvinists and obviously Universalists too.

I thank God for the likes of pneuma and Mystic who are dong a great job of speaking the Word of Life.

God creates by His Word. His Word is Life. There is no Evil in Life.

We are responsible for our choices,and even when we make the wrong choices,He is full of mercy and forgiveness, picks us up and puts us back onto the path of Life.
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I'm done with this thread...
Com'on pcamps, you know you've got about 45 more pages left in you...lol.
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:22 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,922,753 times
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I was reading Isaiah 53, for another thread, and as I was reading it a few verses stood out that are relevant to this thread also. In Isaiah, we read:

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Here, we see the Messiah being "smitten of God", and "afflicted", having man's iniquities "laid on him", and that it "pleased the Lord to bruise him", and that God "put him to grief".

Here, we see God's providence and His hand in placing the sinful acts of man, and it's evil consequences, upon the Messiah to bring about good for those who were the cause of His suffering.

How do others here see this text, and how it relates to the OP, if anything?
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,980,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I was reading Isaiah 53, for another thread, and as I was reading it a few verses stood out that are relevant to this thread also. In Isaiah, we read:

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Here, we see the Messiah being "smitten of God", and "afflicted", having man's iniquities "laid on him", and that it "pleased the Lord to bruise him", and that God "put him to grief".

Here, we see God's providence and His hand in placing the sinful acts of man, and it's evil consequences, upon the Messiah to bring about good for those who were the cause of His suffering.

How do others here see this text, and how it relates to the OP, if anything?
I look forward to seeing some comments on this. It is a "hard" scripture to contemplate, especially for those who do not believe God causes or ordains suffering.

It was God who subjected us to mortality for his own purpose (according to the book of Romans). And it was God who bound all over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on all. Nothing about the devil mentioned in those scriptures.
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:00 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Com'on pcamps, you know you've got about 45 more pages left in you...lol.
I've got 66 books of the bible . Yet I have to learn to move on.
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I've got 66 books of the bible . Yet I have to learn to move on.
lol....sometimes it helps to go back and read 'em again from time to time...
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:52 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Mystic I am not ignoring our will. But our will is nothing compared to God's. Surely you can acknowledge that.
Yes . . . BUT God specifically will NOT override our Will by His express Will. That makes our Will controlling for all intents and purposes.
Quote:
Let me ask you this:
- Is it God's will that we become mature spiritual beings?
Yes . . . that is our whole purpose
Quote:
- Is it possible to become mature without overcoming some kind of evil?
Yes . . . because Evil does NOT exist until we FAIL to overcome our indiscriminate urges. Evil IS the failure to overcome . . . NOT WHAT is overcome. This seems to be where the disconnect is. You think that Evil is something that needs to be overcome separate from our actions. It is NOT. Our immature FAILURE to overcome our indiscriminate urges in "love of God and each other" is what results in Evil.
Quote:
If so, then we must conclude that evil was intended, as I have said all along, necessary so we could be built into what we must become - so we could learn goodness and love.
Wrong . . . it is our failure to abide by goodness and love that PRODUCES Evil. Evil is not what teaches us goodness and love. You have the causal links backward.
Quote:
An understanding of evil is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in order to understand love. Disagree?
Disagree. Rejecting the constraints of love is absolutely necessary to create Evil . . . not understand it.
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