U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-15-2012, 11:46 AM
 
Location: US
10,425 posts, read 3,996,292 times
Reputation: 490

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
For the ones who don't know ‘satan’ is an untranslated Hebrew word which means ‘adversary’, while ‘devil’ is a translation of the Greek word ‘diabolos’, meaning a liar, an enemy or false accuser
H7854
שׂטן
śâṭân
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.

H7853
שׂטן
śâṭan
saw-tan'
A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: - (be an) adversary, resist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-15-2012, 11:49 AM
 
Location: US
10,425 posts, read 3,996,292 times
Reputation: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Yes it is and if you studied the way the Scriptures are written and why certain things are stated the way they are you would know/understand there is no contradiction in 2Sa 24:1, but a Figure of Speech.

The words "and again" [24:1] show the history in this chap. precedes ch. 23 by the Fig. Hysterologia or First Last [a prior mention of a subsequent event].

Second the words He moved=He suffered [allowed] him to be moved. By Hebrew idiom [and also by modern usage] a person is said to do that which he permits to be done. In 2 Samuel we have the historical fact. In 1 Chron. 21:1 we have the real fact from the Divine standpoint.

In 2 Sam. we have the exoteric, in 1 Chron. the esteric.
One from the viewpoint of Hawyaw and one from the viewpoint of His creation...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 11:56 AM
 
Location: US
10,425 posts, read 3,996,292 times
Reputation: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallisdj View Post
From my pickle barrel:

1. There is no entity Satan, Devil, Beelzubub, et al.

2. The original meaning of Satan is simply "adversary." In a review of the Bible, God is more the adversary than any other actor or character. In fact, we even see some of the prophets complaining to God for being such an adversary to mankind.

3. If God is every "thing," then if we were to draw a simple circle to represent God, then everything that "is" would be inside the circle. If anything exists outside the circle, then God cannot be God, because there is something that exists outside of God and perhaps even equal to God, which would negate all things dogmatic.

In addition, if one wishes to place a demonic being, which some aptly name as Satan, where do we place this Satan in regards to the circle? If we put it outside the circle, then again, God cannot be God. There has to be two Gods. But since we are, by the rules, required to place the Satan within the circle, then Satan is as much as a part of God as we are and the rest of the universe.

4. The real adversary is human beings. While our nature is to reject the idea that we are capable of any fault(s), the philosophical "truth" is that we are fault-ridden from birth.

The "ME" principle--the universe revolves around ME--is basic to our nature. The body is designed for self-preservation. Altruism, mercy, love: all these kind of concepts have to be learned. They are not innate. We learned them because we realized at some point in our human development that to exist as a society we have to cooperate and graduate with each other.

As one of my favorite theologians used to describe our situation: either we play God in our daily lives or we let God be God in our lives. Most of the time, we want to be our own God.
Pretty good logic and reason...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 11:57 AM
 
Location: US
10,425 posts, read 3,996,292 times
Reputation: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
What the bible says about evil is allegoric. Satan is simply the symbol of evil. I am not saying you compare Stan to God, but some of you guys certainly elevate Stan to a God like status. I think you do not realize how that diminishes God.
Who is Stan?...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 12:24 PM
 
Location: US
10,425 posts, read 3,996,292 times
Reputation: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
Sorry,but where did the name "lucifer" come from?
It isn't biblical,and it isn't in the bible.
It s the name of a middle eastern god.
H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.


Used in: (LITV)
Isa 14:12 Oh shining star, son of the morning, how you have fallen from the heavens! You weakening the nations, you are cut down to the ground.

(KJV)
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 12:35 PM
 
Location: US
10,425 posts, read 3,996,292 times
Reputation: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
This post above by Fiyero - should be read over and over.
It helps to read your Bibles.

The "Satan" of Job was not a personal name - it was a title: "the satan". This is what the actual Hebrew says, and this is exactly what the Biblical author of the Prose-Prologue of Job meant. Nowhere in the book does it even suggest that "the satan" is evil, or anything else than one of the servants of Yahweh (the personal name of God for some of you unfamiliar with the term) - obedient to Yahweh, not rebellious.

Read further into Job (you know - the middle poetry section that everyone skips because they only care about the story, and not the actual message of Job) and it will very clearly state that both good and evil come from God ALONE - Job's famous words are "If not from Him, then who?" and they are rhetorical; of course it is God alone who dispenses "Justice" to the world. Isaiah would confirm this observation that good AND evil both were created, and come from God.


This "Satan" as Devil image is a copout from what the Book of Job teaches about God and Justice. As Fiyero pointed out - the Persian idea of dualism influenced the LATER idea of an evil, devilish "Satan". It got God off the hook from his monotheistic, all-powerful problem - why is there the suffering of the innocent if God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good? Well.... the Book of Job deals with that issue, and doesn't have to resort to blaming everything on "Satan". Poetry. That's where it's at. Read it.
Good logic....However, the personal Name of God is not Yahweh...If you look in Exodus, His answer to Moses was 'Hawayaw ashur Hawyaw', 'Tell them that Hawyaw has sent you'...But, the Jew says that the Name is a 72 letter Name and that no one knows it except for a chosen succesion of Rabbis that pass on the Name and that this Name is only permitted to be used twice a year...All the other names used in the Scriptures are the replacement for the Name in order that people be not tempted to use the Name in vain...The last chosen Rabbi to use this Name was the one that brought about the Golem in Prague to avenge the abusive treatment of the Jewish people by the local christians...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 12:43 PM
 
Location: US
10,425 posts, read 3,996,292 times
Reputation: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
You might want to reread Job. God gave Satan permission to do all that. Satan in Jewish theology is God's divine prosecutor who challenges humanity at God's bidding. Satan means "adversary" in Hebrew. It's not an evil entity that is going against God's will.
You forgot 'accuser'...So, I am beginning to see a difference between Lucifer, the Satan and the Devil...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 03:27 PM
 
5,388 posts, read 1,967,472 times
Reputation: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
If it was written for the uneducated, then why do people today, that are educated, have such a problem understanding it?...So, any uneducated person back then could have been a Rabbi without the education...

It is difficult to understand a book full of contradictions written by many different authors at different times.


The biggest contradiction is the tendency to assume there is an evil anti-God entity such as Satan.

The evil behavior was described in parables because that suited the education and culture of the day. Little did they know that folks would take those words literally 2000 years later.

The bible would be a piece of cake to understand if we simply assume Satan is merely the symbol of evil. Bible scholars would also appear smarter in front of the academicians of the world.

By the way, the Koran also has experts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2012, 03:12 AM
 
Location: US
10,425 posts, read 3,996,292 times
Reputation: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
It is difficult to understand a book full of contradictions written by many different authors at different times.


The biggest contradiction is the tendency to assume there is an evil anti-God entity such as Satan.

The evil behavior was described in parables because that suited the education and culture of the day. Little did they know that folks would take those words literally 2000 years later.

The bible would be a piece of cake to understand if we simply assume Satan is merely the symbol of evil. Bible scholars would also appear smarter in front of the academicians of the world.

By the way, the Koran also has experts.
Do you believe religion to be a metaphor?...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2012, 07:53 AM
 
5,388 posts, read 1,967,472 times
Reputation: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Do you believe religion to be a metaphor?...

Religion is man made and therefore imperfect.

Jews, Muslims, and Christians all think they are correct.

None of them are correct because religion is man made.

No one can know what God is all about.

Most of the words of the bible are allegoric.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:59 AM.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top