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Old 01-11-2012, 11:42 AM
 
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Reading about the Concordat of 1933, I am stuck by how Vatican leaders thought making a pact with Hitler to preserve their Church and to save Catholic souls was more important than making a stand against the killing of Jews. From the article, a quote by then Cardinal Pecilli:

“The spiritual welfare of 20 million Catholic souls in Germany was at stake, and that was the first and, indeed, only consideration” in agreeing to the concordat. The Holy See “had to choose between an agreement on [Nazi] lines and the virtual elimination of the Catholic Church in the Reich.”

Catholics, do you share similar sentiments? Is the preservation of the Church and Catholic souls more important than saving human lives and standing up for justice?
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:10 PM
 
8,789 posts, read 6,091,167 times
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Originally Posted by notyouraveragebear View Post
Reading about the Concordat of 1933, I am stuck by how Vatican leaders thought making a pact with Hitler to preserve their Church and to save Catholic souls was more important than making a stand against the killing of Jews. From the article, a quote by then Cardinal Pecilli:

“The spiritual welfare of 20 million Catholic souls in Germany was at stake, and that was the first and, indeed, only consideration” in agreeing to the concordat. The Holy See “had to choose between an agreement on [Nazi] lines and the virtual elimination of the Catholic Church in the Reich.”

Catholics, do you share similar sentiments? Is the preservation of the Church and Catholic souls more important than saving human lives and standing up for justice?

So you have discovered that some leaders of the Catholic church were corrupt. So what else is new? Did you expect perfection from religious leaders? They are as capable to sin as anyone else and they will do whatever it takes to preserve themselves. Humans are highly imperfect.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:10 PM
 
428 posts, read 370,263 times
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Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
So you have discovered that some leaders of the Catholic church were corrupt. So what else is new? Did you expect perfection from religious leaders? They are as capable to sin as anyone else and they will do whatever it takes to preserve themselves. Humans are highly imperfect.
Yes, human are an imperfect species. No one will disagree on that. But what I'm asking Catholics is, do they believe that preservation of the Church's hierarchy is more worthwhile than saving human lives (like the Jews during Nazism)? Is it more worthwhile to save Catholic souls than to help fight against an injustice?

I pose this question because it is wondrous to me that a religious denomination could survive after the Vatican leaders doing something like this. So then I'm left wondering if its members agree with what was done.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notyouraveragebear View Post
Reading about the Concordat of 1933, I am stuck by how Vatican leaders thought making a pact with Hitler to preserve their Church and to save Catholic souls was more important than making a stand against the killing of Jews. From the article, a quote by then Cardinal Pecilli:

“The spiritual welfare of 20 million Catholic souls in Germany was at stake, and that was the first and, indeed, only consideration” in agreeing to the concordat. The Holy See “had to choose between an agreement on [Nazi] lines and the virtual elimination of the Catholic Church in the Reich.”

Catholics, do you share similar sentiments? Is the preservation of the Church and Catholic souls more important than saving human lives and standing up for justice?

The concordat was signed in 1933, over 5 years prior to Krystal Nacht, and demoralized the German Catholics ( as stated in the article )

I doubt the Church knew that they would be viewed as complicit in the slaughter of 6 million jews when they signed a deal with ( what we now know is ) the devil.

Nevertheless, it would appear that the general consensus of Catholics, is that the hierarchy erred in judgement. Including the professor from Notre Dame who wrote the article.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,435 posts, read 1,264,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notyouraveragebear View Post
Reading about the Concordat of 1933, I am stuck by how Vatican leaders thought making a pact with Hitler to preserve their Church and to save Catholic souls was more important than making a stand against the killing of Jews. From the article, a quote by then Cardinal Pecilli:

“The spiritual welfare of 20 million Catholic souls in Germany was at stake, and that was the first and, indeed, only consideration” in agreeing to the concordat. The Holy See “had to choose between an agreement on [Nazi] lines and the virtual elimination of the Catholic Church in the Reich.”

Catholics, do you share similar sentiments? Is the preservation of the Church and Catholic souls more important than saving human lives and standing up for justice?
First off, you obviously didn't read all of the whole article you posted just a few lines from, and out of context. Please read on:
Quote:
This statement is noteworthy because it expresses the theology of church that shaped the words and deeds of Pope Pius XI, Cardinal Pacelli and the German bishops. As Cardinal Avery Dulles explained in Models of the Church (1974), this ecclesiology regards the church as a hierarchical institution, indeed as a “perfect society,” founded by Jesus Christ in order to make grace available to all people. Given this view, church officials saw themselves responsible before God for protecting the church’s organization and its functions of sanctifying, teaching and governing. In Pius XII and the Holocaust (2002), José M. Sánchez has pinpointed a pope’s “first obligation” according to the ecclesiology of perfect society: “As head of an institutional church, he is charged with protecting that church; according to Catholic theology, the church is the necessary means of providing the sacraments which give the grace needed for salvation. Without the priests to administer the sacraments and the freedom to receive them, Catholics can be hindered in their search for salvation” (p. 36).
Quote:
The notion of the church as a perfect society guided Pius XI, Cardinal Pacelli and the German bishops in 1933 to concentrate on the preservation of ecclesiastical structures and religious activities to the neglect of social justice. This monolithic ecclesiology no longer dominates Catholic thought, for the Second Vatican Council embraced a diversified ecclesiology, speaking of the church as mystery or sacrament, as people of God, as body of Christ, as collegial community and as servant of the world in the causes of justice, peace and human rights. The Second Vatican Council clarified, too, that the church has a duty to “acknowledge, preserve and encourage the spiritual and moral truths found among non-Christians,” especially among Jews.

The pope and the bishops now have theological resources that call them to promote human rights, even when their efforts jeopardize ecclesiastical structures. Pope John Paul II is conveying this rich ecclesiology in his inspiring statements and actions for the dignity of all people. The bishops are usually doing the same, though some have placed the interests of the institutional church ahead of the well-being of the victims of sexual abuse. If the Holy See and the bishops were facing the Third Reich today, one hopes they would be impelled by Vatican II’s ecclesiology to act differently than Pius XI, Cardinal Pacelli and the German bishops did in 1933.
Quote:
notyouraveragebear : Is the preservation of the Church and Catholic souls more important than saving human lives and standing up for justice?
I don't believe this was ever the Church hierarchy's intent in the first place, despite The National Catholic Weekly's opinion, secondly, as you obviously did not read in the article, many lay Catholics (and even some Bishops) did not like the Concordant and actions of the Church hierarchy then, so why do you need to ask this now, shouldn't you realize that not all Catholics think alike? And the Church hierarchy no longer holds such view now thanks to Vatican II, if it ever did.

As for me personally, I think the Church should and could do both.

And besides that, why do you care about a Concordant from 1933 anyways? Isn't this 2012? What inspired you to look up and read this article? You don't sound like a Catholic, so I doubt you are a subscriber of this magazine..or maybe you are a Catholic and are just in disguise? What is your goal for posting it here and asking this question?

Though I question your sincerity here, I will provide yet more articles about the RCC and the Nazis: How to Manufacture a Legend: The Controversy over the Alleged Silence of Pope Pius XII in World War II , Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust :

Quote:
In 2005, the Italian daily, Corriere della Sera, discovered a letter dated November 20, 1946, showing that Pope Pius XII ordered Jewish babies baptized by Catholics during the Holocaust not to be returned to their parents. Some scholars said the disclosure was not new and that the Pope's behavior was not remarkable. The more important story, according to Rabbi David Rosen, international director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee, was that one of the recipients of the letter, Angelo Roncalli, the papal representative in Paris, ignored the papal directive.(32)

In 2006, an Israeli scholar, Dina Porat, discovered correspondence between Haim Barlas, an emissary of the Jewish Agency sent to Europe to save Jews in the 1940s, and Giuseppe Roncalli, who later became Pope John XXIII. Roncalli expressed criticism of the Vatican’s silence during the war. In June 1944, Barlas sent Roncalli a copy of a report compiled by two Jews who escaped from Auschwitz documenting the mass murder at the camp. Roncalli forwarded the report to the Vatican, which had claimed it did not know about the report until October. Earlier, Roncalli had written to the president of Slovakia at the behest of Barlas asking him to stop the Nazi deportations of Jews.(33)
Conclusion

The Pope's reaction to the Holocaust was complex and inconsistent. At times, he tried to help the Jews and was successful. But these successes only highlight the amount of influence he might have had, if he not chosen to remain silent on so many other occasions. No one knows for sure the motives behind Pius XII's actions, or lack thereof, since the Vatican archives have only been fully opened to select researchers. Historians offer many reasons why Pope Pius XII was not a stronger public advocate for the Jews: A fear of Nazi reprisals, a feeling that public speech would have no effect and might harm the Jews, the idea that private intervention could accomplish more, the anxiety that acting against the German government could provoke a schism among German Catholics, the church's traditional role of being politically neutral and the fear of the growth of communism were the Nazis to be defeated.(34) Whatever his motivation, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Pope, like so many others in positions of power and influence, could have done more to save the Jews.

See also Defenses of Pius XII
Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust :

Quote:
Pope Pius XII was a diplomat and not a radical preacher. He knew that he first needed to preserve Vatican neutrality so that Vatican City could be a refuge for war victims. The International Red Cross also remained neutral. Secondly, he knew how powerless he was against Hitler. Mussolini could quickly shut off electrical power to Vatican Radio during his broadcast (Lapide, p. 256). Finally the Nazis did not tolerate any protest and responded severely. As an example, the Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht in July 1942 protested in a pastoral letter against the Jewish persecutions in Holland. Immediately the Nazis rounded up as many Jews and Catholic non-Aryans as possible and deported them to death camps, including Blessed Edith Stein (Lapide, p. 246). Pius knew that every time he spoke out against Hitler, the Nazis could retaliate against the prisoners. His best attack against the Nazis was quiet diplomacy and behind-the-scenes action. According to The 1996 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia (V8.01) under Pius XII, "Wishing to preserve Vatican neutrality, fearing reprisals, and realizing his impotence to stop the Holocaust, Pius nonetheless acted on an individual basis to save many Jews and others with church ransoms, documents, and asylum."
[SIZE=+2]T[/SIZE]he charity and work of Pope Pius XII during World War II so impressed the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, that in 1944 he was open to the grace of God which led him into the Catholic faith. As his baptismal name, he took the same one Pius had, Eugenio, as his own. Later Israel Eugenio Zolli wrote a book entitled, Why I Became a Catholic.
[SIZE=+2]B[/SIZE]ut Pope Pius XII was not completely silent either, especially in his Christmas messages. His 1941 and 1942 Christmas messages were both translated and published in The New York Times (Dec. 25, 1941, p. 20 & Dec. 25, 1942, p. 10). To prevent retaliation, he did not refer to Nazism by name, but people of that era still understood him, including the Nazis. According to The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24):

The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace.

Also The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16) states:

This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things.

Both editorials recognize and highly praise Pius' words against Hitler and totalitarianism.

Now there were traitors in the Church who were Nazis or helped Hitler. There were Catholics who committed sins of bigotry. There were also Catholics, who, out of fear or indifference, sinned through silence. The Church is full of sinners for whom Christ died. We killed Jesus with our sins (Is. 53: 5-6). But Pope Pius XII and many Catholics did not remain "silent." Could 860,000 Jewish lives be saved by "silent" indifference? In our own day, there are people who claim to be Catholic but promote and participate in abortion, assisted-suicide and artificial birth control. In the next century, will the world also falsely accuse the Church and the Pope for being silent during the "culture of death" holocaust?
I hope that helps.

Augh...I just read this post:
Quote:
I pose this question because it is wondrous to me that a religious denomination could survive after the Vatican leaders doing something like this. So then I'm left wondering if its members agree with what was done.
Now I do know your intention. A devout Catholic recognizes the failings of his Church, but wants to cleanse and reform it, not destroy it.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Southern California
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Augh...I just read this post:
Quote:
Quote:
I pose this question because it is wondrous to me that a religious denomination could survive after the Vatican leaders doing something like this. So then I'm left wondering if its members agree with what was done.
Now I do know your intention. A devout Catholic recognizes the failings of his Church, but wants to cleanse and reform it, not destroy it.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:19 PM
 
8,789 posts, read 6,091,167 times
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Originally Posted by notyouraveragebear View Post
Yes, human are an imperfect species. No one will disagree on that. But what I'm asking Catholics is, do they believe that preservation of the Church's hierarchy is more worthwhile than saving human lives (like the Jews during Nazism)? Is it more worthwhile to save Catholic souls than to help fight against an injustice?

I pose this question because it is wondrous to me that a religious denomination could survive after the Vatican leaders doing something like this. So then I'm left wondering if its members agree with what was done.
The Catholic church has done much worse in the past. During the Inquisition they killed Jews that refused to accept Jesus Christ. For the same reason they killed many Muslims too. The hierarchy of the church tried to cover up pedophilia by some priests.

What is your point?

I guess you assume the Catholic church should have disappeared.

You make a fatal assumption. Catholicism is not simply a religion. Catholicism is also a cultural trait of many nations in the world. It is not easy to leave behind your culture and traditions.

Assuming you are an American citizen. Will you stop being American because of the errors committed by the government of the USA?
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,435 posts, read 1,264,209 times
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Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The Catholic church has done much worse in the past. During the Inquisition they killed Jews that refused to accept Jesus Christ. For the same reason they killed many Muslims too. The hierarchy of the church tried to cover up pedophilia by some priests.

What is your point?

I guess you assume the Catholic church should have disappeared.

You make a fatal assumption. Catholicism is not simply a religion. Catholicism is also a cultural trait of many nations in the world. It is not easy to leave behind your culture and traditions.

Assuming you are an American citizen. Will you stop being American because of the errors committed by the government of the USA?
I'll go one further. It's not just a religion or culture. It s a belief system....I may not agree with the institutional Church hierarcrhy, but I agree with the faith, with the main dogmas....I am not a Catholic because of any human, even because of the human leaders of my Church..they come and go...the deposit of faith: the Church dogma, Traditions, culture, and rituals are always there...as well as the many good Bishops and billions of good and even heroic lay Catholics...when I go to Mass, I am not thinking about any Bishop or Pope (until we pray for them)..
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:54 PM
 
8,789 posts, read 6,091,167 times
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Originally Posted by cmforte View Post
I'll go one further. It's not just a religion or culture. It s a belief system....I may not agree with the institutional Church hierarcrhy, but I agree with the faith, with the main dogmas....I am not a Catholic because of any human, even because of the human leaders of my Church..they come and go...the deposit of faith: the Church dogma, Traditions, culture, and rituals are always there...as well as the many good Bishops and billions of good and even heroic lay Catholics...when I go to Mass, I am not thinking about any Bishop or Pope (until we pray for them)..
Exactly!!!!! This is something non-Catholics will never understand.
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Exactly!!!!! This is something non-Catholics will never understand.
You're right about that. I will never understand why anyone would cling to any organized religion.
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