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Old 01-16-2012, 02:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Although we share much, we're different in several ways.

****

The Protestant Old Testament is, I believe, basically the Rabbinic canon of the Tanakh. We Catholics use something closer to the Septuagint of Hellenistic Jews. So our Bible contains the following books: Tobit, Judith, Maccabees I & II, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch.

Relational the Protestant numbering, exempting the Lutherans, of the Ten Commandments goes by what's apparently called "The Philonic." In this false gods and idolatry are separate commandments while coveting (neighbor's goods or wife) is all the same commandment. Catholicism goes by the "Augustinian" where false gods and idolatry are one commandment while coveting is two with sexual/romantic coveting as separate from coveting goods.

Catholicism has seven sacraments. Exempting Anglicanism, which is arguably not Protestant anyway, Protestantism usually has fewer sacraments or sees the sacraments in a different way.

Catholicism believes in the value of tradition, conciliar judgments, and "right reason." (The last is a difference with Orthodoxy as their theologians usually prefer mystical experience above reason or study) Protestantism generally recognizes the Bible-alone as the sole source of doctrine or dogma.

Catholicism considers the Pope to be the successor of Peter and leader of the faith. Protestantism, and Orthodoxy, reject this idea.

Catholicism believes that people who only have lesser, venal, sins on their soul will be purified after death in Purgatory and that our prayers aid them. Protestantism, and Orthodoxy, rejects this notion. (Some Orthodox believe in a kind of middle-place, but prayers for the dead offer comfort and nothing else)

Catholicism believes in the "intercession of saints", that people in Heaven can and will pray for you. Protestantism rejects that. (I'm not sure what Orthodoxy feels on it)

Catholicism consider Mother Mary to be "Blessed" and to have consented to what occurred. Also that she lacked original sin and stayed a virgin for life. Protestantism varies on this, but usually does not see Mary as quite so exceptional. Some note Bible verses that could seem to imply Mary had kids after Jesus and that she was critical of him. (Orthodox ideas on Mary are similar to Catholicism though their view of "ancestral sin" is slightly different than "original sin" and Orthodox art tends not to display Mary without Jesus whereas Catholics will do "stand-alone" paintings of Mary)

Catholicism believes in the value of chaste/celibate life. Protestantism sometimes accepts that, Taize or the Shakers or the "New Montasticism", but I think tends to feel celibacy is an extremely rare thing for unusual people. Some Puritans went so far as to discourage celibacy as "Catholic."

Catholicism sees the Gospel pronouncements on marriage as meaning divorce and remarriage are not allowed. Protestants tend to feel it's allowed in cases of adultery and some allow it for far more situations than that. (Orthodox feel it's allowed, but I've heard you must "repent" of a failed marriage before remarrying and that you can't remarry more than 2-3 times or something)

Catholicism believes in the value of "good works." Protestantism emphasizes "faith alone", which leads to works.

Catholicism places somewhat more emphasis on the Crucifixion than Protestantism or, to an extent, Orthodoxy. Crucifixes are usually, but not always, Catholic. Protestants have "empty crosses" as, I believe, symbolizing the Resurrection.

Catholicism, and Orthodoxy, believe the Eucharist actually is the Body and Blood of Christ. Protestantism does not, though Lutherans do see Eucharist as "Communion" with God. I don't know how to explain it, but I think Lutherans feel it is "with" the Eucharist and that the Eucharist is in some sense simultaneously "Body and Blood" and "Bread and Wine."

*****

As I'm Catholic I'm trying to "be fair" and avoid making these descriptions biased toward Catholicism, but you'll have to judge if I succeeded. Also there are, sadly, many Catholics who essentially reject every area where Catholicism is different than Protestantism. I've also seen a few Protestants emphasize "High Church" things like Marian hymns, calendars of saints, etc that could seem "Catholic."
You place traditions of men above the word of God. Catholic doctrine is in direct conflict with the Bible. God, HIMSELF, said we should not add or take away from His word.

Things like purgatory, limbo, not eating meat on Friday, veneration of saints, idols (statues), worship of Mary, the mass, indulgences, the catholic priesthood, confessional booths......All are traditions of men. Some are specifically forbidden by God.

I mean no offense to you personally, but I do not see how anyone could put his faith in a human being above God.

Katie
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:07 PM
 
9,624 posts, read 1,159,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visit a Library View Post
Thanks for the info. Of particular note, I'd forgotten that Protestants don't believe in a Purgatory. That's interesting, particularly in that there are hypothesis about "multiple heavens" amongst certain spiritualists, their nature based on the sort of life we lead, which is closer to the Catholic doctrine.

I'm curious as to why Protestants reject the notion of Purgatory.
Because it's not in the Bible.

Katie
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:13 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,276,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
You place traditions of men above the word of God. Catholic doctrine is in direct conflict with the Bible. God, HIMSELF, said we should not add or take away from His word.

Things like purgatory, limbo, not eating meat on Friday, veneration of saints, idols (statues), worship of Mary, the mass, indulgences, the catholic priesthood, confessional booths......All are traditions of men. Some are specifically forbidden by God.

I mean no offense to you personally, but I do not see how anyone could put his faith in a human being above God.

Katie

You are writing your post using a straw man. There is nothing wrong with tradition and there is no sin in honoring Mary or saying a Hail Mary.


Could you explain why God would be upset with a Hail Mary. Why would God be upset if we honor men and women that tried to emulate Jesus. How is that hurting God?

Who says we are putting our faith on a human? What is wrong with paying respect to the Pope?
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:20 PM
 
9,624 posts, read 1,159,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
Here's a major one Thomas missed:

The Catholic Church was created by Jesus Christ. The Orthodox ChurchES were created by Christ. Protestant denominations were created by MEN.
Sorry my friend, but you are mistaken. The catholic church was not created by Jesus Christ. Neither was the orthodox church created by Christ.

You will not find the term "catholic" until the council at Nicea 325 A.D. This is when the elders from the local churches got together with Roman officials and came up with the name catholic. It was at this time that a decision was made to organize the church the same way the Roman government was organized. Emperor, advisers, governors. Pope, cardinals, bishops. This was the first real departure from the Lord's Church. Never, ever in the Bible was one elder placed above the other elders. Never, ever in the Bible will you find the word Pope. (This info can be found in any public library. Of course, catholic history will be much different, but if you are looking for truth, you need to look at all sources.)

There is only one church, the one Jesus built and died for. It is not catholic. It is not protestant. It is not baptist, methodist, episcopalian, presbyterian or lutheran.

The Bible calls the Lord's church by several different names: churches of God, churches of Christ, Bride of Christ, Body of Christ. Notice all of these scriptural names are associated with CHRIST as opposed to the names given by men.

Catholic, orthodox, and other protestant churches are denominations or divisions which departed from the true church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you look hard, you can still find the Lord's church today. Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. That is a promise Jesus made to us. So, it's out there. You just have to look for it. It's the church which follows the pattern of the New Testament church, and it's the one which carries the name associated with Christ, not some man made name.

Blessings,

Katie
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:27 PM
 
9,624 posts, read 1,159,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
You are writing your post using a straw man. There is nothing wrong with tradition and there is no sin in honoring Mary or saying a Hail Mary.


Could you explain why God would be upset with a Hail Mary. Why would God be upset if we honor men and women that tried to emulate Jesus. How is that hurting God?

Who says we are putting our faith on a human? What is wrong with paying respect to the Pope?
God put it very simply.

Exodus 20:3
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

There is everything wrong with putting the traditions (inventions) of men above the word of God. As soon as you put your faith in what the Pope or any man says that contradicts what the word of God says, then you are elevating them above God.

Acts 5:29 Luke wrote, 29 "But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men."

Matthew 15:8-9 "In vain do they worship me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men."

Blessings,

Katie

Last edited by MissKate12; 01-16-2012 at 02:37 PM..
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:37 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,276,266 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
God put it very simply.

Exodus 20:3
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

There is everything wrong with putting the traditions (inventions) of men above the word of God. As soon as you put your faith in what the Pope or any man says that contradicts what the word of God says, then you are elevating them above God.

Blessings,

Katie
Katie:



Many uneducated peasants in South America have altars of the Virgin Mary at home and regularly pray to the Virgin. They also lit candles to the virgin. The patron of Mexico is Virgen de la Guadalupe.

Do you honestly think God has a problem with these Christians that pray to the Virgin Mary?
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:38 PM
 
889 posts, read 819,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Sorry my friend, but you are mistaken. The catholic church was not created by Jesus Christ. Neither was the orthodox church created by Christ.

You will not find the term "catholic" until the council at Nicea 325 A.D. This is when the elders from the local churches got together with Roman officials and came up with the name catholic. It was at this time that a decision was made to organize the church the same way the Roman government was organized. Emperor, advisers, governors. Pope, cardinals, bishops. This was the first real departure from the Lord's Church. Never, ever in the Bible was one elder placed above the other elders. Never, ever in the Bible will you find the word Pope. (This info can be found in any public library. Of course, catholic history will be much different, but if you are looking for truth, you need to look at all sources.)

There is only one church, the one Jesus built and died for. It is not catholic. It is not protestant. It is not baptist, methodist, episcopalian, presbyterian or lutheran.

The Bible calls the Lord's church by several different names: churches of God, churches of Christ, Bride of Christ, Body of Christ. Notice all of these scriptural names are associated with CHRIST as opposed to the names given by men.

Catholic, orthodox, and other protestant churches are denominations or divisions which departed from the true church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you look hard, you can still find the Lord's church today. Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. That is a promise Jesus made to us. So, it's out there. You just have to look for it. It's the church which follows the pattern of the New Testament church, and it's the one which carries the name associated with Christ, not some man made name.

Blessings,

Katie
You have been told before but you cling to your willful ignorance.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans (~110 A.D.):

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.


The term catholic in St. Ignatius letter would have course been used way before the letter was written, so that could take you back to the first century.

The Catholic Church is not a Christian denomination. It is the original church that Christ began. Christ did not leave us a Bible. He left us with a living Church. Protestant "denominations" are named such because they divided and separated from another Church. The truth is, only a handful of protestant churches actually broke off of the Catholic Church. The vast majority broke off of another protestant denomination.

The Catholic Church, the one and only, Jesus created Church. Sorry if this fact rocks your world. Jesus wanted it that way.

Last edited by GoodToBeHome; 01-16-2012 at 03:53 PM..
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Old 01-16-2012, 05:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
My statement of who started the churches is 100% accurate, no matter how much protestant hair is raised. The so called "bells and whistles" of the Catholic Church is all there for a reason. First all they have the Jesus given authority (Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven) to introduce any "bells and whistles" they like and secondly Jesus used bells and whistles too, aka, sacramentals. For example Jesus smearing the mud in the eyes of blind man. We are human and therefore need physical and tangible connections to the those things spiritual to help us understand and appreciate them better. Jesus knew this and taught the Apostles. Those traditions are continued today in the Catholic Church.

Thomas is another Catholic on this board. You want nice and intelligent, he's your man. I can be very nice, but I don't want to confuse people. I don't sugar coat anything. To me that only cause confusion and indecision. It's time for black and white, which I believe describes the Catholic vs Protestant argument.

Protestant churches could counter they are closer to the Church Christ started but that would be completely inaccurate. Just go to the Early Church Fathers and see what they believed. You will find the Catholic Church. St. Augustine of Hippo, which is about the only Early Church Father that protestants refer to, was completely Catholic in his beliefs.

Come home and discover the Church Jesus created. It's such a good feeling to know that almost 2000 years later, I can still go to the Church Jesus created and said he would protect.

Entire Anglican and Episcopal Churches have come home to the Catholic Church, pastor and all. Take another look. You won't be sorry.

Here's a very recent story about the Catholic handling of converting Episcopals:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/us...pagewanted=all

Here's a story from about a year ago talking about the new group for converted Anglicans:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/wo...ican.html?_r=1

A little more recent on Anglicans:
BBC News - More Anglicans to convert to Catholicism at Easter
That's nice. But as many Catholics have become Episcopalians as vice versa. Seems a good third of our congregation are former Catholics, as well as one of our priests. We just don't hand out press releases trumpeting the fact.

Here's the deal. The OP just wanted an explanation of different beliefs, not a theological debate. Another poster, a fellow Catholic, actually did an excellent job. Now, we have to have guys like you coming on here wanting to refight the Thirty Years War with a bunch of nonsense. How hard could it have been to simply say, "Catholics believe X and Protestants believe Y," and move on?
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Old 01-16-2012, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
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[quote=Julian658;22569770]Katie:



Many uneducated peasants in South America have altars of the Virgin Mary at home and regularly pray to the Virgin. They also lit candles to the virgin. The patron of Mexico is Virgen de la Guadalupe.

Do you honestly think God has a problem with these Christians that pray to the Virgin Mary?[/quote]

A true protestant would say "yes" to your question, were they presumptuous enough to think they can speak for God (and enough people are).

The idea is that prayers are made to God only. I don't get the significance of the "uneducated peasants" example you gave, but to a protestant, you don't pray to another dead person. Even a dead person of great biblical importance.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,060 posts, read 83,928,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
That's nice. But as many Catholics have become Episcopalians as vice versa. Seems a good third of our congregation are former Catholics, as well as one of our priests. We just don't hand out press releases trumpeting the fact.

Here's the deal. The OP just wanted an explanation of different beliefs, not a theological debate. Another poster, a fellow Catholic, actually did an excellent job. Now, we have to have guys like you coming on here wanting to refight the Thirty Years War with a bunch of nonsense. How hard could it have been to simply say, "Catholics believe X and Protestants believe Y," and move on?
We are a very small Episcopal parish. At our women's group Christmas dinner, we were discussing ways to find new members. One of the women humorously suggested leaving flyers on the cars in the nearby Catholic Church parking lot that say, "Divorced? Gay? Use birth control? Come to St. XXXXX Episcopal half a mile up the street! We'll take you just as you are."

Lord forgive us. No, we wouldn't ever really do it.
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