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The gate is small and narrow only a few ever find it and he says "make every effort to use it". I don't see in your lenghty random citations a discription of a gate anyone must have the faith to use. Maybe you need to make another run at actually finding it first.
Hi Mike! Thanks for all the time you put into your replies. I just wanted to let you know that the reason I have engaged you so much about this is because I honestly was raised and have continued in this exact theological understanding that you are putting forward, so for me it is an intense Biblical "workout" to examine, identify and perhaps challenge my presuppositions when coming to the Scriptures and lines of reasoning you present. I started studying the 5 points of Calvinism in October, because of a family member who told me God predestined a few for heaven and the rest for hell. That's another issue, but that's what got me really started on searching the Scriptures more than ever.
I am realizing that the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ is founded very much on the doctrine of inherited depravity - everyone is born with a sin nature and, more specific to this topic - it is not eradicated at conversion. You've presented it as an assumed truth, and I appreciate that this is necessary to support the idea that sinning is inevitable for a Christian.
There is a difference between saying that sinning is IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian, and saying that NOT SINNING is possible for a Christian. Would you agree? When you are faced with temptation, is it possible for you to withstand it? Is there any occasion where you are tempted to sin when you are simply powerless to withstand it?
You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
We are not Jesus. We have a sin nature. Jesus Christ because of the virgin birth did not. His temptations came from without. From Satan and from the world.
I agree with the first sentence. But you're asking me to agree with a LOT there without Scriptural backup, and then building your case squarely on these premises. Jesus didn't have a sin nature because of the virgin birth? He didn't have a sin nature to be sure, but he took on weak human flesh and was tempted in ALL things AS WE ARE. Here you are saying He wasn't tempted as we are? Please explain...
Another thing --- I never read Paul, James, John, Peter, etc, telling Christians they are going to sin no matter how hard they try not to. I have never read that anywhere in the Bible, or even anything even close to it. What I have read is that IF we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. John wrote 1 John to the church so that we would not sin. Why is this issue of sinning so important to John if God doesn't see our sin but only Christ's righteousness? Is it really all about a believer's fellowship with God and daily communion? Have you read the book of 1 John in a sitting and seen that 1 John 1:8-9 are just two verses out of an incredible, mind-blowing letter that will challenge you and invigorate you to walk HOLY in LOVE before the God who sees! Sorry for getting a little excited, but I love the book of 1 John and have been reading it with fresh eyes lately.
Quote:
Do you truly think that you can avoid ever sinning when these men couldn't? Any believer who thinks that he will never sin again is arrogant which along with pride is the worst of sins.
I don't think it is prideful or arrogant at all to boast that Christ has set us FREE from the law of sin and death. Alive and free to obey, as we depend wholly on Him! We are no longer sold under sin! Praise the LORD!!
Last edited by Steph1980; 01-17-2012 at 10:10 PM..
YES ! Steph ! We CAN ! ! ! \o/ Praise God !...and DO NOT let anyone tell you differently !
Amen, and I appreciate your enthusiasm with this one! It's absolutely true. We are, on our journey into eternity doing a "one step forward, one back," or two steps forward but you get my point.
As long as we remain humble, and keep hope that we are to receive the promise, and keep looking up, to to speak then we will realize that we are stumbling less.
Of myself I can do nothing, but Jesus will move in me and "have His being" within me and I will slowly be becoming perfect, and knowing that it's Him and not me changing me.
Hi Mike! Thanks for all the time you put into your replies. I just wanted to let you know that the reason I have engaged you so much about this is because I honestly was raised and have continued in this exact theological understanding that you are putting forward, so for me it is an intense Biblical "workout" to examine, identify and perhaps challenge my presuppositions when coming to the Scriptures and lines of reasoning you present. I started studying the 5 points of Calvinism in October, because of a family member who told me God predestined a few for heaven and the rest for hell. That's another issue, but that's what got me really started on searching the Scriptures more than ever.
I am realizing that the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ is founded very much on the doctrine of inherited depravity - everyone is born with a sin nature and, more specific to this topic - it is not eradicated at conversion. You've presented it as an assumed truth, and I appreciate that this is necessary to support the idea that sinning is inevitable for a Christian.
There is a difference between saying that sinning is IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian, and saying that NOT SINNING is possible for a Christian. Would you agree? When you are faced with temptation, is it possible for you to withstand it? Is there any occasion where you are tempted to sin when you are simply powerless to withstand it?
You said:
I agree with the first sentence. But you're asking me to agree with a LOT there without Scriptural backup, and then building your case squarely on these premises. Jesus didn't have a sin nature because of the virgin birth? He didn't have a sin nature to be sure, but he took on weak human flesh and was tempted in ALL things AS WE ARE. Here you are saying He wasn't tempted as we are? Please explain...
Another thing --- I never read Paul, James, John, Peter, etc, telling Christians they are going to sin no matter how hard they try not to. I have never read that anywhere in the Bible, or even anything even close to it. What I have read is that IF we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. John wrote 1 John to the church so that we would not sin. Why is this issue of sinning so important to John if God doesn't see our sin but only Christ's righteousness? Is it really all about a believer's fellowship with God and daily communion? Have you read the book of 1 John in a sitting and seen that 1 John 1:8-9 are just two verses out of an incredible, mind-blowing letter that will challenge you and invigorate you to walk HOLY in LOVE before the God who sees! Sorry for getting a little excited, but I love the book of 1 John and have been reading it with fresh eyes lately.
I don't think it is prideful or arrogant at all to boast that Christ has set us FREE from the law of sin and death. Alive and free to obey, as we depend wholly on Him! We are no longer sold under sin! Praise the LORD!!
Excellant post Steph ! \o/ Praise God ! I love TRUTH !
Amen, and I appreciate your enthusiasm with this one! It's absolutely true. We are, on our journey into eternity doing a "one step forward, one back," or two steps forward but you get my point.
As long as we remain humble, and keep hope that we are to receive the promise, and keep looking up, to to speak then we will realize that we are stumbling less.
Of myself I can do nothing, but Jesus will move in me and "have His being" within me and I will slowly be becoming perfect, and knowing that it's Him and not me changing me.
The "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" is what is being discussed. The born-again doctrine. Can a Christian have assurance in their salvation from Perdition? Can they put on their "helmet of Salvation" (Ephesians 6) putting their faith in that they are in God's hands? How does one receieve God's grace - a "free gift" according to Paul?
It's interesting to note that in the Numbers 14 situation, the individuals lacked faith that God would do what he said - deliver them to the promised land defeating the children of Anak despite the odds. The Pharisee's made a career of being obedient to the law, but Jesus calls them whited sepulchers outward appearing beautiful but inside being full of dead men's bones (Matthew 23). So what's going on here?
What does Jesus say about faith?
Matthew 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Do we have faith/believe God will provide for us despite the conditions?
Matthew 8:7-11
7And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
The Centurian recognizes Jesus as Lord. He fervently moves to serve him acting soley on believing that Jesus is and he'll do what he said. The Lord Applauds him for his faith.
Matthew 8:24-27
24And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
25And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
26And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
27But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
With knowing the creator incarnate was sleeping on the ship with them, they were afraid. Jesus says they have little faith.
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Jesus say her faith alone and healed the son.
Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Jesus says her faith had made her whole.
Matthew 14:30-32
30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
In the Matthew account, it says they doubted. He says they were of little faith.
Matthew 15:27-28
27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Faith alone = daughter made whole
Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
They had little bread to feed the multitudes. They figured they couldn't feed them. Jesus said they had little faith.
Matthew 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me
The context was the apostles were attempting to expell a demon and couldn't do it. Why? Jesus said they lacked faith.
Matthew 17:20
Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Same demon. Jesus says they couldn't because of unbelief.
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mark 4:40
And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Fear is a lack of faith.
The risk of adding to belief/faith
Galatians 3
"1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto."
Galatians 2
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
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Sorry for getting a little excited, but I love the book of 1 John and have been reading it with fresh eyes lately. 
