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View Poll Results: Do you believe the catholic church was the 1st church?
yes 20 28.57%
no 50 71.43%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-22-2012, 08:58 PM
 
347 posts, read 422,860 times
Reputation: 299

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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Hi PsychDoc,

Read what Paul wrote to Timothy. Paul said ALL scripture is inspired. He said it is profitable for doctrine, for proving what is right, for correcting what is wrong, and for instructing us in righteousness. He said the man of God would be complete, thoroughly equipped. That tells me man needs nothing else except what is written in the scriptures.

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Read Jude 3.

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Once for all is pretty plain language.

I understand why catholics want to deny the Bible as the only authority. It is their way of trying to justify their catholic traditions. Otherwise, how else could they justify them? The Bible plainly and forcefully condemns catholic doctrines.

I'm sure the apostles would have preferrred to deliver their message in person, but the fact is, they communicated the entire will of God through letters written within the pages of the New Testament. That is how God wanted it.

There is nothing God wills for us to do that is not written in His word. Anything outside His word opens the door too wide every wind of doctrine to come down the pike.

Peter said we are born again through the word of God which lives and abides forever. He said the word of the Lord endures forever. Peter claimed that the Bible would survive because it is God's book.

"Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because "All flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls away, but the word of the LORD endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you" (I Peter 1:22-25).

Blessings,

Katie
Paul says Scripture is inspired....nowhere does he say that Scripture is all you need. This is your logic: "apples are good for you, therefore only eat apples." That's not what Paul meant.

And once again, there is not a single Catholic teaching that conflicts with Biblical teaching.
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:07 PM
 
347 posts, read 422,860 times
Reputation: 299
Katie, you are acting as if the Bible was written like a modern novel. Starting with Matthew on. However, the writing of the New Testament was not that cut and dry. As one puts together a timeline of Church history, including in that works written that are not included in the New Testament, one must reach a conclusion that the early Church was indeed Catholic. By the time the Gospel of John was written for example, the Church was already 50 years old (which forces a Catholic view of John 6). But more importantly, the Christians that lived at the time all have very Catholic views. Not a Church of Christ member among them.
Here is a timeline within a 100 year period between the Resurrection of Christ to Justin Martyr (roughly 130 AD.) Think of it from World War 2 on. There are people still alive to remember the events:

c. 30-33 - The death and resurrection of Jesus
c. 35 - The conversion of Paul
40s or 50s - James
c. 45-49 - Paul's first missionary journey
Sometime between 48 and 58 - Paul writes Galatians
c. 50-53 - Paul's second missionary journey
50s - Paul writes Titus
50s or 60s - Mark written (based on oral tradition set down by Peter).
50s or 60s - Matthew written
51 - Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians
c. 53-57 - Paul's third missionary journey
Spring of 55 - Paul writes 1 Corinthians
56 - Paul writes 2 Corinthians
c. 57 - Paul writes Romans
c. 60 - Paul writes Colossians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Philemon, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Ephesians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 61 - Paul writes Philippians, while in prison in Rome
Early 60s - Luke written
c. 60-70 - The Didache is written.
c. 62 - Paul is free
c. 62-64 - Luke writes Acts
c. 62-64 - Paul writes 1 Timothy
July 18-19, 64 - The Great Fire of Rome. Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, and a great persecution ensued.
Mid 60s - 1 Peter written
c. 64-68 - Paul writes 2 Timothy from prison
c. 67-68 - 2 Peter
c. 68 - Hebrews is written
June 9, 68 - The death of Nero. Sometime between the Great Fire of Rome and the death of Nero, both Peter and Paul were martyred.
c. 69 - Jude
70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.
c. 85 - John written
Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John
95- The Epistle of Clement is written..
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain).
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution.
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written.
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written.
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written.
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written.
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written.
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s.

So tell me Katie, why is it within a 100 year period, does the Church look so Catholic?
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:38 PM
 
347 posts, read 422,860 times
Reputation: 299
I think there is an all-too-common tendency to think of the Bible as the source text for all that was believed in the early centuries. We're reading it backwards when we do that. The New Testament, especially the later writings (Paul's letters, for instance), was addressed to people who were already holding established beliefs in order to confirm and strengthen them in the faith. So when we see Eucharistic or liturgical themes in Scripture, it is not that the early Church looked to those texts to justify their practice, but the practices had already been around, and the texts were written with those things in mind. Look to some of the more liturgical elements of 1 Corinthians or Hebrews--Paul wasn't telling the Christians to whom he was writing what to do in great detail, he was writing with their already established practices in mind.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,435 posts, read 681,869 times
Reputation: 243
For those who sincerely want to know what the Catholic Church actually and officially teaches, as well as the opinion of other many well-educated and devout Catholic lay faithful, and are not just looking for a fight or to score brownie points in a debate, there are a plethora of apologetic (teaching and defending sites). Here are a few of my favorites:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Catholics Come Home

Browse Results | Catholic Answers

Catholic Online

The list of all Catholic Scripture verses that defend Catholic doctrines in Holy Quotes

Defending the Catholic Faith

The Catholic Knight: About This Blog

phat catholic apologetics

Welcome to Scripture Catholic - Providing Scriptural Evidence for the Teachings of the Catholic Faith

A Catholic Texan

Global Catholic Television Network | EWTN

Beliefs and Teachings
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:31 AM
 
2,675 posts, read 1,078,374 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by auntieannie68 View Post
you have many misinterpretations of what a catholic does--God's word always comes first---i am not going to defend my choice of religion nor will i tell you yours is incorrect--there are many paths to God and i believe He welcomes all who come to Him no matter what their religious practices believe

btw---did you know that the term blessings is used primarily by those practicing Wicca?????
I have no misunderstanding of catholicism at all since I was trained in it the first 18 years of my life. Catholicism is a direct contradiction to God's word. I needed to make a choice. Choose God's word or choose the doctrines/traditions of men. I chose God'word.

God Bless,

Katie
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:42 AM
 
2,675 posts, read 1,078,374 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDoc View Post
Katie, you are acting as if the Bible was written like a modern novel. Starting with Matthew on. However, the writing of the New Testament was not that cut and dry. As one puts together a timeline of Church history, including in that works written that are not included in the New Testament, one must reach a conclusion that the early Church was indeed Catholic. By the time the Gospel of John was written for example, the Church was already 50 years old (which forces a Catholic view of John 6). But more importantly, the Christians that lived at the time all have very Catholic views. Not a Church of Christ member among them.
Here is a timeline within a 100 year period between the Resurrection of Christ to Justin Martyr (roughly 130 AD.) Think of it from World War 2 on. There are people still alive to remember the events:

c. 30-33 - The death and resurrection of Jesus
c. 35 - The conversion of Paul
40s or 50s - James
c. 45-49 - Paul's first missionary journey
Sometime between 48 and 58 - Paul writes Galatians
c. 50-53 - Paul's second missionary journey
50s - Paul writes Titus
50s or 60s - Mark written (based on oral tradition set down by Peter).
50s or 60s - Matthew written
51 - Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians
c. 53-57 - Paul's third missionary journey
Spring of 55 - Paul writes 1 Corinthians
56 - Paul writes 2 Corinthians
c. 57 - Paul writes Romans
c. 60 - Paul writes Colossians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Philemon, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Ephesians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 61 - Paul writes Philippians, while in prison in Rome
Early 60s - Luke written
c. 60-70 - The Didache is written.
c. 62 - Paul is free
c. 62-64 - Luke writes Acts
c. 62-64 - Paul writes 1 Timothy
July 18-19, 64 - The Great Fire of Rome. Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, and a great persecution ensued.
Mid 60s - 1 Peter written
c. 64-68 - Paul writes 2 Timothy from prison
c. 67-68 - 2 Peter
c. 68 - Hebrews is written
June 9, 68 - The death of Nero. Sometime between the Great Fire of Rome and the death of Nero, both Peter and Paul were martyred.
c. 69 - Jude
70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.
c. 85 - John written
Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John
95- The Epistle of Clement is written..
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain).
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution.
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written.
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written.
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written.
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written.
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written.
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s.

So tell me Katie, why is it within a 100 year period, does the Church look so Catholic?
Thank you for the timeline. I have one to share with you also. Will post the link later.

Throughout the NT, the church that Jesus built is known by several names. The congregations were called "churches of God, churches of Christ, bride of Christ, body of Christ. The name catholic did not appear until long after the apostle John wrote Revelation.

I don't know what you mean by "looking"catholic. I can only tell you that catholic is a man made name. It does not appear in the Bible.

God Bless,

Katie
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:56 AM
 
347 posts, read 422,860 times
Reputation: 299
The only problem with your contention Katie, and its a big one, is that there is NO HISTORICAL PROOF whatsoever of non-Catholic churches during the first few centuries after Jesus died. There are tons and tons of writing that provide historical PROOF of the Catholic Church structure soon after Jesus rose again and specifically mention the blessed Sacrament (Eucharist) within 100 years after Jesus' death. Its revisionist history that you are advocating. Plus, why should I believe your interpretation of the Bible vs. the intrepretation of the Catholic Church, which faithfully and dutifully put the Bible together a few centuries later?

In regards to your earlier posts about confession not being in the Bible, there is plenty of Biblical examples of confession:

In the Old Testament.......Leviticus 5:4-6; Leviticus 19:21-22
  1. Apostles forgiving sins........John 20:21-23
  2. Confessing sins to one another and forgiveness......James 5:15-16
  3. Paul forgiving............................2 Cor 2:9-11
  4. Ministry of reconciliation................2 Cor 5:18
  5. Confession and the John the Baptist........Matthew 3:4-6
  6. People Confessing.........Acts 19:17-18
If you think Catholicism is false, why the quote the Bible? The Bible was canonized by the Church in the year 400 A.D.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:41 AM
 
359 posts, read 157,920 times
Reputation: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
You shoot yourself in the foot by admitting that .

Church or religion is man made. And the Catholic church preserved Christianity by being the 1st church (or denomination).
Preserved?Destroyed!
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:22 PM
 
2,675 posts, read 1,078,374 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDoc View Post
The only problem with your contention Katie, and its a big one, is that there is NO HISTORICAL PROOF whatsoever of non-Catholic churches during the first few centuries after Jesus died. There are tons and tons of writing that provide historical PROOF of the Catholic Church structure soon after Jesus rose again and specifically mention the blessed Sacrament (Eucharist) within 100 years after Jesus' death. Its revisionist history that you are advocating. Plus, why should I believe your interpretation of the Bible vs. the intrepretation of the Catholic Church, which faithfully and dutifully put the Bible together a few centuries later?

In regards to your earlier posts about confession not being in the Bible, there is plenty of Biblical examples of confession:

In the Old Testament.......Leviticus 5:4-6; Leviticus 19:21-22
  1. Apostles forgiving sins........John 20:21-23
  2. Confessing sins to one another and forgiveness......James 5:15-16
  3. Paul forgiving............................2 Cor 2:9-11
  4. Ministry of reconciliation................2 Cor 5:18
  5. Confession and the John the Baptist........Matthew 3:4-6
  6. People Confessing.........Acts 19:17-18
If you think Catholicism is false, why the quote the Bible? The Bible was canonized by the Church in the year 400 A.D.
Psych,

The problem you are having is that you elevate history above the Bible. I don't. No matter what history says, it is not the inspired word of God.

From the history I have read, the name "catholic" doesn't appear until 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea. This was a meeting between local elders and Roman officials.

Up until this time, a plurality of elders along with deacons led each local congregation. No one elder was elevated above the others.

The decision was made at the Council of Nicea to change the structure of the way the church was organized. It would now follow the design of the Roman government. The goverment head was the emperor. Next were advisers, then under them governors. The newly named catholic church would now have a head, the pope. Under him would be cardinals, and then below them bishops.

Psych, I am not asking you to accept mine or anyone's interpretation of the Bible. I think you are intelligent enough to read and understand the Bible.

I am not disagreeing with you about communion, although I don't know where the word "eucharist" comes from. I'm not finding it in the Bible. Maybe it's Latin?

Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper. I believe we need to take it each Lord's day.

Please try to understand. I am saying that my authority is the inspired word of God. That's what I place my faith in. I do not place it in history.

I am not advocating any kind of history. I am advocating the.Bible, the inspired, infallible word of God.

Do you not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

God bless,

Katie
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:44 PM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,005,294 times
Reputation: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Psych,

The problem you are having is that you elevate history above the Bible. I don't. No matter what history says, it is not the inspired word of God.

From the history I have read, the name "catholic" doesn't appear until 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea. This was a meeting between local elders and Roman officials.

Up until this time, a plurality of elders along with deacons led each local congregation. No one elder was elevated above the others.

The decision was made at the Council of Nicea to change the structure of the way the church was organized. It would now follow the design of the Roman government. The goverment head was the emperor. Next were advisers, then under them governors. The newly named catholic church would now have a head, the pope. Under him would be cardinals, and then below them bishops.

Psych, I am not asking you to accept mine or anyone's interpretation of the Bible. I think you are intelligent enough to read and understand the Bible.

I am not disagreeing with you about communion, although I don't know where the word "eucharist" comes from. I'm not finding it in the Bible. Maybe it's Latin?

Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper. I believe we need to take it each Lord's day.

Please try to understand. I am saying that my authority is the inspired word of God. That's what I place my faith in. I do not place it in history.

I am not advocating any kind of history. I am advocating the.Bible, the inspired, infallible word of God.

Do you not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

God bless,

Katie
Wrong. St Ignatious wrote of the Catholic Church before 110. He wrote of it as a term already being used. He also wrote of the body and blood of Christ, and the heretics who didn't believe it. I point you to chapter 8.

Quote:
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Smyrnaeans (St. Ignatius)

But read the whole the whole thing. To be steeped in history, is to cease to be Protestant. You act like history doesnt matter, but it does. What did the early Christians believe? How did they act? How did they worship? These things matter. You take things from the Bible, a Catholic book, yet ignore the people who created the bible.
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