The catholic was not the 1st church! (ritual, Israel, Isaac)

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

We can all approach the throne of God for forgiveness. We ask in Jesus name. Jesus is the mediator between us and God.

Your believing that confession has more weight if given to a priest is not Biblical. It may well be tradition, but it is not scriptural.

Priests do not represent God on earth. That is not Biblical. That is tradition. I've already given you scriptures which tell us that all christians are priests. It is right to confess our sins to one another, but it is not necessary to confess them to a man in a robe who claims to be God's representative on earth.

I understand that all of this is your tradition. I respect that, but I think you are so very wrong to base your faith on tradition and not on the word of God.

God Bless,

Katie

I think I read years ago that the Catholic Priesthood is a representation of the the Levitical Priesthood in which they were representative of Yehovaw Elohim Hawyaw in the Tabenacle's Holy of Holies, however, the forbadence of marriage:

The practice of priestly celibacy began to spread in the Western Church in the early Middle Ages. In the early 11th century Pope Benedict VIII responded to the decline in priestly morality by issuing a rule prohibiting the children of priests from inheriting property. A few decades later Pope Gregory VII issued a decree against clerical marriages.
The Church was a thousand years old before it definitively took a stand in favor of celibacy in the twelfth century at the Second Lateran Council held in 1139, when a rule was approved forbidding priests to marry. In 1563, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the tradition of celibacy. - History News Network (http://hnn.us/articles/696.html - broken link)

Married Priests in the Early Church

History fully supports a married priesthood. For the first 1200 years of the Church’s existence, priests, bishops and 39 popes were married.3 Celibacy existed in the first century among hermits and monks, but it was considered an optional, alternative lifestyle. Medieval politics brought about the discipline of mandatory celibacy for priests. Let’s remember the words of Jesus: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church." St. Peter, the pope who was closest to Jesus, was married. There are three references in the Gospel about St. Peter’s wife, his mother-in-law and his family. Based on Jewish law and custom, we can safely assume that all of the Apostles, except for young John, were married with families. 4

Married priests and their spouses were the first pastors, the first bishops, the first missionaries. They carried the message of Jesus across cultures and protected it through many hardships. They guided the fragile young Church through its early growth and helped it survive numerous persecutions.

Pope John Paul II recognized this in 1993 when he said publicly that celibacy is not essential to the priesthood.5 This pronouncement offers great promise toward resolving the problem of the shortage of celibate priests. The early Church was a network of small family-based communities throughout the Mediterranean region. Life was marked by a sense of joyful expectation. Jesus said that he would return and the first Christians believed that it would be soon. Led by married priests, they met at each other’s homes to celebrate the Mass. Strangers were invited to share the bread and wine. No one was excluded from receiving Communion. The strangers soon became friends, joined the young Church, and brought others to hear the good news of Jesus.

Sacred Scripture documents that priests and bishops of the early Church were married. In the New Testament, in his first letter to Timothy, chapter 3, verses 1 through 7, St. Paul discusses the qualities necessary for a bishop. He describes a "kind and peaceable" father, a man with a family. As part of his description, St. Paul even asks the question, "...how can any man who does not understand how to manage his own family have responsibility for the church of God?" St. Paul established many small communities and left them in the hands of married priests and bishops. - Married Priests: Roman Catholic Traditions

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Julian658

Katie said

"that all of this is your tradition. I respect that, but I think you are so very wrong to base your faith on tradition and not on the word of God."

Katie, you are an excellent debater and you know the above is a strawman. The catholic church is the church of christ and the apostles.

There are passages in the bible that speak of celibacy. Furthermore, many early christians practiced celibacy. I am not saying celibacy is right or wrong, but I disagree with how protestants demonize celibacy.

1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, cleaving to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 in lying speakers in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods, which God created for partaking with thanksgiving by the believers and those knowing the truth.


The practice of priestly celibacy began to spread in the Western Church in the early Middle Ages. In the early 11th century Pope Benedict VIII responded to the decline in priestly morality by issuing a rule prohibiting the children of priests from inheriting property. A few decades later Pope Gregory VII issued a decree against clerical marriages.
The Church was a thousand years old before it definitively took a stand in favor of celibacy in the twelfth century at the Second Lateran Council held in 1139, when a rule was approved forbidding priests to marry. In 1563, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the tradition of celibacy. - History News Network (http://hnn.us/articles/696.html - broken link)

Married Priests in the Early Church

History fully supports a married priesthood. For the first 1200 years of the Church’s existence, priests, bishops and 39 popes were married.3 Celibacy existed in the first century among hermits and monks, but it was considered an optional, alternative lifestyle. Medieval politics brought about the discipline of mandatory celibacy for priests. Let’s remember the words of Jesus: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church." St. Peter, the pope who was closest to Jesus, was married. There are three references in the Gospel about St. Peter’s wife, his mother-in-law and his family. Based on Jewish law and custom, we can safely assume that all of the Apostles, except for young John, were married with families. 4

Married priests and their spouses were the first pastors, the first bishops, the first missionaries. They carried the message of Jesus across cultures and protected it through many hardships. They guided the fragile young Church through its early growth and helped it survive numerous persecutions.

Pope John Paul II recognized this in 1993 when he said publicly that celibacy is not essential to the priesthood.5 This pronouncement offers great promise toward resolving the problem of the shortage of celibate priests. The early Church was a network of small family-based communities throughout the Mediterranean region. Life was marked by a sense of joyful expectation. Jesus said that he would return and the first Christians believed that it would be soon. Led by married priests, they met at each other’s homes to celebrate the Mass. Strangers were invited to share the bread and wine. No one was excluded from receiving Communion. The strangers soon became friends, joined the young Church, and brought others to hear the good news of Jesus.

Sacred Scripture documents that priests and bishops of the early Church were married. In the New Testament, in his first letter to Timothy, chapter 3, verses 1 through 7, St. Paul discusses the qualities necessary for a bishop. He describes a "kind and peaceable" father, a man with a family. As part of his description, St. Paul even asks the question, "...how can any man who does not understand how to manage his own family have responsibility for the church of God?" St. Paul established many small communities and left them in the hands of married priests and bishops. - Married Priests: Roman Catholic Traditions

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

How could you possibly believe that Jesus didn't establish His church? Have you read the book of Acts? What do you think Paul meant when he wrote in Romans, "The churches of Christ salute you? The church belongs to Christ. He shed His blood for it. The NT is filled with references to the church, the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, the church of God.

The church was established on the day of Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Read Acts 2:41, 47. It clearly states that the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

That tells you there was an established church. If you do a study on the words kingdom and church, you will find they are synomous in the NT. Jesus said His kingdom would come with power, and it did on the day of Pentecost. The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit. They were empowered to speak in foreign languages, peform miracles, prophesy, heal, raise from the dead. All of these things were done to confirm the word, to promote the gospel, and most of all to grow the church.

The kingdom is spoken about repeatedly in the NT. Paul said that we are translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His dear son. He is speaking about the CHURCH.

God Bless,

Katie

Act 2:47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the assembly, the ones being saved from day to day.

[Julian658]

Originally Posted by garya123

If the finished and complete work of Christ who payed for all our debt is not enough then perhaps you should examine your faith and ask for more. Jesus is and always will be the only direct excess to the Father even as He said, "No man comes to the Father but by Me." It is for your benefit to stand on your own faith and not of another, "for without faith no one can please God." Sure God is everywhere to hear whats going on but He wants a direct relationship to you because He Loves you and gave Himself for you for direct fellowship with you. Ask and you shall receive.

What a selfish and insecure God you have. I don't see God in that manner.

[Julian658]

I do not favor celibacy. However, there are passages in the bible that suggests celibacy is desirable for some. A usual, one can also find contradictory passages on this issue.

My concern is the demonization of catholics by protestants. WE catholics admire the devotion of protestants

[garya123]

Originally Posted by Julian658

What a selfish and insecure God you have. I don't see God in that manner.

To say that God wants a direct relation is selfish and insecure is way beyond measure to comprehend. The fact is it seems that it is you that is insecure about standing on your own faith. If you were "born again" you would not say such a thing as you would be walking in the power of His presence and in the Glory of the Lord. Your being religious per say is not what Christ came to give. He came to give direct excess to God for daily living of the eternal nature quality. But if you want the crumbs off the table then so be it.

[Capt. Dan]

Originally Posted by PsychDoc

Typical "Protestant" bs.

The Catholic Church built western civilization as we know it.

Not any moreso than the Muslims and Jews. As a matter of fact,IMO, Christianity has tried to stop the advancement of civilization/science/free thought. By silly adherence to drivel like the book of Genesis.

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by Julian658

What a selfish and insecure God you have. I don't see God in that manner.

Hi Julian,

I don't understand what Gary said in his post that would make you say that his God is selfish and insecure. Could you please explain yourself?

Katie

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by Capt. Dan

Not any moreso than the Muslims and Jews. As a matter of fact,IMO, Christianity has tried to stop the advancement of civilization/science/free thought. By silly adherence to drivel like the book of Genesis.

Drivel? So you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

So what do you base your faith in God on, if you have any, that is?

Katie

[Julian658]

Originally Posted by garya123

To say that God wants a direct relation is selfish and insecure is way beyond measure to comprehend. The fact is it seems that it is you that is insecure about standing on your own faith. If you were "born again" you would not say such a thing as you would be walking in the power of His presence and in the Glory of the Lord. Your being religious per say is not what Christ came to give. He came to give direct excess to God for daily living of the eternal nature quality. But if you want the crumbs off the table then so be it.

No need to be born again. Salvation is also available to those that are not born again God is not picky about that. Your religious belief system is too rigid.