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A revealing test for all who believe in immortality of the soul and eternal torment:
1. Do you believe that God does not call all men? YES
Many are called - not all. Mat 22:14 "Many are called but few are chosen"
2. Are there some who never have a chance to believe and repent? YES
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
If both of those elements are true then we know that God created some men who were never going to be called and have the opportunity to repent.
3. Do you believe that all men are born with immortality of the soul? YES
4. Do those men with immortal souls who do not repent go to the lake of fire? YES
5. Do you believe that all men who do not repent go to the lake of fire are tormented for ever and ever? YES
If you answered yes to all those questions then you believe that God created some people only to live, die and then to burn forever.
If it is true that all men have eternal life (immortality of the soul) and Eternal Torment is true then it must follow that God created some men whose only destiny was to go to the lake of fire and be tortured forever even though they never were given the opportunity to repent.
That would make God a monster who created some people who never even heard of God to burn forever without hope.
The belief in the eventual restoration of all men to God has existed since the very early days of the church and held by many considered to be church fathers. Many who believed in it taught eternal hell to the masses. There were efforts to conceal the belief.
The Church Fathers on Universalism
[CENTER]Quotes:[/CENTER]
[LEFT]The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great
There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)
For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. --Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.
These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19
The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed
In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. --St. Jerome, 331-420
For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. --Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390
The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428
We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria
Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)
That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. --Peter Chrysologus, 435
I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome
Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.--Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy
Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. --Jerome
In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord's passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. --Didymus, 370 AD
Stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that dwells in him, and this healing He applies, according to the will of God, to everyman. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: “My determination to gather the nations, that I am assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even say all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent”…Consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the Name of the Lord, and serve him with one consent.—Origen (185 to 254 A.D.)
He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.
The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal. in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus' Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.—Jerome (340 to 420 A.D), commenting on Zephaniah 3:8-10
The Son "breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state. --Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea
Our Savior has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. 'Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,' for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection.-- Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)
We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. --Origen (185 to 254 A.D.)
For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity. --Theodoret the Blessed, 387-458
A revealing test for all who believe in immortality of the soul and eternal torment:
1. Do you believe that God does not call all men? YES
Many are called - not all. Mat 22:14 "Many are called but few are chosen"
2. Are there some who never have a chance to believe and repent? YES
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
If both of those elements are true then we know that God created some men who were never going to be called and have the opportunity to repent.
3. Do you believe that all men are born with immortality of the soul? YES 1 Cor. 15:53 - For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
4. Do those men with immortal souls who do not repent go to the lake of fire? YES Revelation 14:9-11 - Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
5. Do you believe that all men who do not repent go to the lake of fire are tormented for ever and ever? YES Revelation 20:10, 15 - 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
If you answered yes to all those questions then you believe that God created some people only to live, die and then to burn forever.
Romans 9:21-22 - Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
If it is true that all men have eternal life (immortality of the soul) and Eternal Torment is true then it must follow that God created some men whose only destiny was to go to the lake of fire and be tortured forever even though they never were given the opportunity to repent.
That would make God a monster who created some people who never even heard of God to burn forever without hope.
Does that make sense?
There are Bible verses for the others. I have supplied them above for you. I even gave you a bonus w/ Romans 9.
The red above... that just needs to stop. To suggest God is a monster for something that you don't like is total disrespect. God is God whether or not He puts anyone in the furnace.
A revealing test for all who believe in immortality of the soul and eternal torment:
1. Do you believe that God does not call all men? YES
Many are called - not all. Mat 22:14 "Many are called but few are chosen"
2. Are there some who never have a chance to believe and repent? YES
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
If both of those elements are true then we know that God created some men who were never going to be called and have the opportunity to repent.
3. Do you believe that all men are born with immortality of the soul? YES
4. Do those men with immortal souls who do not repent go to the lake of fire? YES
5. Do you believe that all men who do not repent go to the lake of fire are tormented for ever and ever? YES
If you answered yes to all those questions then you believe that God created some people only to live, die and then to burn forever.
If it is true that all men have eternal life (immortality of the soul) and Eternal Torment is true then it must follow that God created some men whose only destiny was to go to the lake of fire and be tortured forever even though they never were given the opportunity to repent.
That would make God a monster who created some people who never even heard of God to burn forever without hope.
Does that make sense?
Hi Verna, I think God does give everyone, everywhere, the opportunity to repent. I know it is difficult to think of people who "haven't heard" the gospel ... that they would burn in hell for eternity for something they have no control over. It is impenitence and hardness of heart that incurs God's wrath - and this is only after God has been patient, longing and waiting for people to turn to Him. God doesn't toss people into the lake of fire for lack of knowledge. Not only is that not Scriptural, but every fibre of our being is repulsed by such a thought. I hate that idea. God hates that idea. God is rich in mercy, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness. Peter said to Cornelius, in Acts 10 that God accepts all men, in every nation, who do what is right and fear Him. Cornelius's prayers went up before the Lord as a memorial and God was pleased with Cornelius's heart. Cornelius hadn't the faintest clue about God's salvation. So God sent Peter to him, to preach the gospel. I have no idea how many thousands or millions of Cornelius's there are in the world today, but I do know that God is not a monster.
Of course, my mistake. Paul can never be applying anything he writes in his letters to anyone other than the recipients.
That's interesting. I thought Paul was writing "To the churches of Galatia". (Chapter 1:2)
I'm saying this in good humour, Jimmie... But couldn't really avoid showing the inconsistency in your reasoning. We really do need to look at more than just the letter's audience, but also the immediate context, author's intent, other scriptures which shed light on the matter, original languages... It is not just one thing which decides the meaning and application of a text.
No inconsistency. The audience is still believers.
After much thought, I've decided that (for me) this is a silly doctrinal disagreement to be getting into. I don't know, but I wonder if the devil is loving that we're sitting here going back and forth about the exact nature of the judgment which - we all agree - is coming upon the world in some way, shape or form.
The point is, it is coming.
I find that this particular topic/thread is distracting me from what is really important to God - Walking by faith in Him, day by day. Living in the fullness of His grace. Obeying His commands from the heart. Loving others. Being zealous for good works. Knowing Christ and growing in the grace and knowledge of Him. Denying myself. Showing mercy to others. Worshiping God.
Maybe its not doing that for you, but I don't want to fall into a habit of analyzing God through a sterile scope. I want to have a vibrant walk with Him, to pursue holiness and call on the Lord from a pure heart. So as much as I've enjoyed engaging the subject material, I am going to leave this lil topic alone for now.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
I wonder how many people have had the word taken from their hearts by... preachers who tell them about Jesus and then tell them their dead children, parents, etc...were burning in torture forever without hope.
It is now clear to me that Eternal Torment is one of Satan's most effective tools.
"Antony Flew was right to object that if Christians really believe that God created people with the full intention of torturing some of them in hell forever, they might as well give up the effort to defend Christianity."
Pinnock rightly asks: "How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon His creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself."
Annihilation is an act of God's mercy upon a wicked soul.
Something to consider. For Good to triumph over Evil, Evil must be completely eradicated. So long as Evil exists, Good cannot have triumphed.
So it is not enough that Evil is contained. It must be eradicated.
To me, the only argument is annihilation versus age long correction. Unending punishment is not an option.
Annihilation is an act of God's mercy upon a wicked soul.
Annihilation, if it were true, would mean that evil (or non-love) is capable of being MORE powerful than LOVE. Annihilation, if it were true, is saying that love finally had to give in and surrender to non-love by just annihilating it because it could not conquer it. God IS Love. There is nothing MORE powerful than God. Love conquers ALL.
Annihilation (while far better than the ridiculous and blasphemous belief of "eternal torment") falls utterly short.
The true good news is that all non-love within each human being that has ever lived or who will ever live is being destroyed.
There is the wide path that leads to destruction (non-love) and the narrow path that leads to life (love).
After much thought, I've decided that (for me) this is a silly doctrinal disagreement to be getting into. I don't know, but I wonder if the devil is loving that we're sitting here going back and forth about the exact nature of the judgment which - we all agree - is coming upon the world in some way, shape or form.
The point is, it is coming.
I find that this particular topic/thread is distracting me from what is really important to God - Walking by faith in Him, day by day. Living in the fullness of His grace. Obeying His commands from the heart. Loving others. Being zealous for good works. Knowing Christ and growing in the grace and knowledge of Him. Denying myself. Showing mercy to others. Worshiping God.
Maybe its not doing that for you, but I don't want to fall into a habit of analyzing God through a sterile scope. I want to have a vibrant walk with Him, to pursue holiness and call on the Lord from a pure heart. So as much as I've enjoyed engaging the subject material, I am going to leave this lil topic alone for now.
And I'm also going to bed now. Night all.
Good Christian common sense post.
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Still can't rep you.
Night all.
