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Old 01-21-2012, 10:52 AM
 
Location: NC
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Mr5150, we receive eternal life or everlasting life (never to die) when we receive immortality.

"1 Corinthians 15:
50 50And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; 51lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (aphthartoi), and we -- we shall be changed: 53for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption (aphtharsian), and this mortal to put on immortality; (athanasian) 54and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; 55where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

Aionios life

Aionios (the word in the original) means of or relating to an age. Jesus says this:



John 17: 3and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ; 4I did glorify Thee on the earth, the work I did finish that Thou hast given me, that I may do [it]. (YLT)


Today true believers have something beautiful, something of value, the greatest life that we can have during this time, the life of knowing the Only True God, the life of walking with the Only True God. We know Him and the Son whom He has sent. We have a relationship with Him and live by faith in Him, have forgiveness of sins, have His Spirit dwelling in us, pray to Him, have His blessings, are able to live for Him, are His lights in the world. We do not walk in darkness but have the light of life and are being transformed into His image. God abides in us (1 John 4:14) This refers to a quality of life in this age and in the age to come.

But we will die and receive immortality when we are raised by the Lord. This is when we receive everlasting life, never to die again. Those who have aionios life, the life of knowing God and His Son, will be raised to be immortal. Eventually all will receive this when death is abolished, and God becomes all in all (1 Cor. 15)

this corruptible to put on incorruption (aphtharsian), and this mortal to put on immortality; (athanasian)

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-21-2012 at 11:12 AM..
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:00 AM
 
Location: NC
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I have heard so many people say that they want to make it to heaven, that they got saved and will make it to heaven. Is this really what it is about? Yes, we want to live forever, but is this what our focus is?

Isn't it really about knowing our God and Savior, walking with Him, living for Him, walking in the light and truth, being His people? Learning to love as He loves, being those lights in the world? This is what life really is, knowing our Savior and living for Him. This is the life, the life of God, spiritual life. Spiritual death is the opposite. God bless.

1 John 5: 10He who is believing in the Son of God, hath the testimony in himself; he who is not believing God, a liar hath made Him, because he hath not believed in the testimony that God hath testified concerning His Son;
11and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this -- the life -- is in His Son;
12he who is having the Son, hath the life; he who is not having the Son of God -- the life he hath not.
13These things I did write to you who are believing in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that life ye have age-during, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God.
14And this is the boldness that we have toward Him, that if anything we may ask according to his will, He doth hear us,
15and if we have known that He doth hear us, whatever we may ask, we have known that we have the requests that we have requested from Him.
16If any one may see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give to him life to those sinning not unto death; there is sin to death, not concerning it do I speak that he may beseech;
17all unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not unto death.
18We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;
19we have known that of God we are, and the whole world in the evil doth lie;
20and we have known that the Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ; this one is the true God and the life age-during! 21Little children, guard yourselves from the idols! Amen.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-21-2012 at 11:13 AM..
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Florida -
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Default The UR doctrine is found on the 'wide road that leads to destruction'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysee View Post
Paul never taught Hell? not a problem, is it? We each have our individual callings, our roles, gifts, and talents. If Paul never taught hell this in no way, of course means that hell is not a reality.
Similarly, the term "Christian" is only used once in scripture, by King Herod Agrippa, a pagan -- so, by the same logic, Christian's likewise, do not exist.

I've really grown weary of the tendancy of those who promote Universal Reconcilliation to isolate a few scriptures, interpret them as they wish ... and ignore the rest. Oh yes, and then to characterize any who do not ignore the rest of scripture as "ET'rs" or somehow favoring 'eternal torment'. So, though I'll regret it, let me once again get 'sucked-into' the UR debate.

I would love to believe that everyone will be saved, if that is what scripture said, but, it doesn't! In the 30-years of preaching/teaching the Bible (expository), I've never seen UR ... But, I have seen hundreds of teachings to the contrary. God is a God of Love and desires for ALL to come to repentance (and Salvation)', BUT, that's not going to happen -- and "the Day of the Lord WILL come as a thief in the night."

So, what is my concern? Why not just live and let live? ... or agree to disagree? -- The problem is that when these divisive doctrines are preached/taught as absolute fact, they lead weak or non-Christians to believe that nothing beyond 'living on earth' is necessary to eternal Salvation and heaven (Faith, the Bible, Jesus Christ, etc. are all just 'window dressing). "Predestination" can be twisted in a similar fashion. In any case, if I am wrong, then praise God for His perfect way ... and I've lost nothing .... BUT, if they enter eternity without a saving faith in Jesus Christ, they have lost EVERYTHING! --- Those seem like pretty high stakes to me!
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:25 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi jghorton, I know that you were addressing Sunnysee, I just wanted to share that believers who believe in the eventual restoration/reconstitution of all and base this belief on the scriptures, are not ignoring any of the scriptures.

Quote:
Similarly, the term "Christian" is only used once in scripture, by King Herod Agrippa, a pagan -- so, by the same logic, Christian's likewise, do not exist.
Also, the apostle Paul did not correct King Agrippa when he referred to believers as Christians:


Acts 26: 28Agrippa replied to Paul, “[v]In a short time you [w]will persuade me to [x]become a Christian.” 29 And Paul said, “[y]I would wish to God, that whether [z]in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains.” (NAS)


And it is also referenced in Acts 11:26 and 1 Peter 4:16.

Paul declared the whole counsel of God and was sent to be a preacher to the Gentiles. If eternal hell was the consequence for not believing in Jesus then he would have declared this. It is supposedly according to many believers, a part of the gospel message. Also if eternal hell was the consequence for disobeying God, it would have been declared from the very beginning when, Adam sinned and also revealed to Israelites, the chosen people of God back in the day. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-21-2012 at 12:20 PM..
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Old 01-21-2012, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,651 posts, read 32,108,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Similarly, the term "Christian" is only used once in scripture, by King Herod Agrippa, a pagan -- so, by the same logic, Christian's likewise, do not exist.

I've really grown weary of the tendancy of those who promote Universal Reconcilliation to isolate a few scriptures, interpret them as they wish ... and ignore the rest. Oh yes, and then to characterize any who do not ignore the rest of scripture as "ET'rs" or somehow favoring 'eternal torment'. So, though I'll regret it, let me once again get 'sucked-into' the UR debate.

I would love to believe that everyone will be saved, if that is what scripture said, but, it doesn't! In the 30-years of preaching/teaching the Bible (expository), I've never seen UR ... But, I have seen hundreds of teachings to the contrary. God is a God of Love and desires for ALL to come to repentance (and Salvation)', BUT, that's not going to happen -- and "the Day of the Lord WILL come as a thief in the night."

So, what is my concern? Why not just live and let live? ... or agree to disagree? -- The problem is that when these divisive doctrines are preached/taught as absolute fact, they lead weak or non-Christians to believe that nothing beyond 'living on earth' is necessary to eternal Salvation and heaven (Faith, the Bible, Jesus Christ, etc. are all just 'window dressing). "Predestination" can be twisted in a similar fashion. In any case, if I am wrong, then praise God for His perfect way ... and I've lost nothing .... BUT, if they enter eternity without a saving faith in Jesus Christ, they have lost EVERYTHING! --- Those seem like pretty high stakes to me!
true, true...
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:00 PM
 
Location: NC
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The word Hell, in the Old Testament, is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which occurs sixty-four times, and is rendered “hell” thirty-two times, “grave” twenty-nine times, and “pit” three times.

1. By examination of the Hebrew Scriptures it will be found that its radical or primary meaning is, The place or state of the dead. The following are examples:

“Ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.” Gen. xvii 38.

“I will go down to the grave to my son mourning.” xxxviii 35.

“O that thou wouldst hide me in the grave!” Job xiV 13. “My life draweth nigh to the grave.” Ps. lxxxviiI 3.

“In the grave who shall give thee thanks?” lxxxvi 5.

“Our bones are scattered at the grave’s mouth.” cxlI 7.

“There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” Ecc. ix. 10.

“If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold thou art there.” Ps. cxxxix. 8.

“Hell from beneath is moved to meet thee, at thy coming. It stirreth up the dead for thee,” &c. Isaiah xiV 9-15

These passages show the Hebrew usage of the word sheol, which is the original of the word “grave” and “hell” in all the examples cited. It is plain that it has here no reference to a place of endless torment after death. The patriarch would scarcely say, “I will go down to an endless hell to my son mourning.” He did not believe his son was in any such place. Job would not very likely pray to God to hide him in a place of endless torment, in order to be delivered from his troubles.If the reader will substitute the word “hell” in the place of “grave” in all these passages, he will be in the way of understanding the Scripture doctrine on this subject.
But there is also a figurative sense to the word sheol, which is frequently met with in the later Scriptures of the Old Testament. Used in this sense, it represents a state of degradation or calamity, arising from any cause, whether misfortune, sin, or the judgment of God.
This is an easy and natural transition. The state or the place of the dead was regarded as solemn and gloomy, and thence the word sheol, the name of this place, came to be applied to any gloomy, or miserable state or condition. The following passages are examples:


“The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me.” Psalm xvii 4-6. This was a past event, and therefore the hell must have been this side of death.

Solomon, speaking of a child, says, “Thou shalt beat him, and deliver his soul from hell;” that is, from the ruin and woe of disobedience. ProV xxiiI 14.

The Lord says to Israel, in reference to their idolatries, “Thou didst debase thyself even unto hell.” Isaiah lvii 9. This, of course, signifies a state of utter moral degradation and wickedness, since the Jewish nation as such certainly never went down into a hell of ceaseless woe.

Jonah says, “Out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardst me.” ii 2. Here we see the absurdity of supposing sheol or hell to mean a place of punishment after death. The hell in this case was the belly of the whale; or rather the wretched and suffering condition in which the disobedient prophet found himself.


Ref: T. Thayer

God bless.
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Hell, according to the OT.

Isaiah 66:23 ďAnd they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.Ē
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:18 PM
 
Location: NC
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Hi,
References of unquenchable fire refer to fire that is unstoppable, unable to be quenched, but does not mean that the fire will be burning forever. For example in the OT, there are many references to God’s unquenchable fire or wrath and many have been fulfilled. This does not mean that the fires that brought about destruction are still burning today.

Josephus says, [Jewish War, B. ii, ch. xvii:6.] speaking of a fire that used to burn in the temple--though at the time he wrote [A.D.80] it had gone out, and the temple was destroyed--"Every one was accustomed to bring wood for the altar, that fuel might never be needed for the fire, for it continued always unquenchable."


Strabo, [A.D. 70} described the "unquenchable lamp" that used to burn in the Parthenon, though it has long since ceased to burn. [Lib. ix: p. 606.]

Plutarch, {A.D. 110} in Numa, [p. 262] speaks of places in Delphi and Athens, "where there is a fire unquenchable," (asbeston) though in the same breath he describes it as having ceased to burn.
Eusebius, [A.D]325, Eccl. Hist. Lib. vi, chap. 41] in his account of the martyrdom of Cronon and Julian, at Alexandria, says they were "consumed in unquenchable fire, asbesto puri," though it burned only long enough to destroy their bodies.

In the Scriptures an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be extinguished until it has fulfilled its purpose.

Lev. vi: 12-13, "And the fire upon the altar shall be burning in it; it shall not be put out: and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace offerings. The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out."

This fire was long ago extinguished, and yet it was "never to go out."

So we read in Isa. xxxiv:9-10, "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."

The unquenchable fire has long since expired


*******************

The Old Testament and fire burning chaff: Job says, the wicked are "as chaff that the storm carrieth away," xxxv:5, xxi:18. See also Psalms. Isaiah v:24. xvii:13. xxix:5. xxxiii:14. xli:15. The Jewish nation, which was about to be destroyed, was represented by chaff, reserved for destruction, as it was in Matt. iii:10, by the tree which was to be hewn down and cast into the fire. The fire by which the Jews were destroyed was the fire of divine judgment: and asit did its work effectually, so it was unquenchable. It is for this reason that the punishment and destruction of the Jews are described in the Old Testament as being effected by unquenchable fire.

See Isaiah lxvi:23-24. "And it shall come to pass from one new moon to another, and fromone Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

The unquenchable fire here is on the earth, Again, Jer. xvii:27. "But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on theSabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."

Fire kindled in the gates of Jerusalem, which devoured the palaces of Jerusalem, is said to be unquenchable.

Ezek. xx:45 "Moreover, the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field; and say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord:--Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree, the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therin. And all flesh shall see that I the Lord have kindled it; it shall not be quenched."

Here the forests are devoured in an unquenchable fire. What is the meaning? The fire was not quenched until all material was consumed.

Ref. Gary Amirault

“If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold thou art there.” Ps. cxxxix. 8.
(Sheol)

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-21-2012 at 06:43 PM..
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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It does not say 'unquenchable', it simply says "will not be quenched", and "the worms will not die". It means eternal.
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:52 PM
 
Location: NC
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Hi,

Lev. vi: 12-13, "And the fire upon the altar shall be burning in it; it shall not be put out: and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace offerings. The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out."

This fire was long ago extinguished, and yet it was "never to go out."

So we read in Isa. xxxiv:9-10, "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."

The fire that is ever burning and shall not be quenched has long since expired.


There are many scriptures which speak of things being everlasting, unquenchable, incurable, eternal or lasting forever, which do not mean an everlasting condition.


Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no
more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will
"restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without
blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a
"perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies
for our sins. We now have a better covenant
established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb.
8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.

If someone believes that people will be in a hell burning forever, then he or she must believe that Jesus will be there too, filling hell and everyone who is there. (Ephesians 4:9-10)God bless.
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