U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-30-2012, 09:23 AM
 
12,230 posts, read 5,823,702 times
Reputation: 1918
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Here are some about the spiritual rock ...
Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:4 was trying to get people to see the deeper meaning.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

Deuteronomy 32:31
For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

1 Samuel 2:2
“There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:2
He said: “The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;

2 Samuel 22:3
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation

2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

2 Samuel 22:47
“The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

Psalm 18:2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
Yes. But in 1 Cor 10:3-4 Paul was referring to the source of the Israelites sustenance during their wilderness wanderings. The manna as well as the water was provided by God. Since the water was provided by Christ and came from a rock, Paul called Christ the spiritual rock which followed them. And the water was a spiritual drink because it was supernaturally provided by Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-30-2012, 09:30 AM
 
12,230 posts, read 5,823,702 times
Reputation: 1918
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Mike is right about this And he has backed it up with Scripture.
Thanks ILNC.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2012, 10:31 AM
 
2,258 posts, read 734,354 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by saved33 View Post
Just to add one more...

Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses.
Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one. (Is. 44:8)
Yea, both you and Twin get it! We drink of the Rock even to day because He "follows" us as He did them whereever we go. I have never had a literal rock follow me but I have had goodness and mercy follow me all the days of my life!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2012, 12:45 PM
 
2,258 posts, read 734,354 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes. But in 1 Cor 10:3-4 Paul was referring to the source of the Israelites sustenance during their wilderness wanderings. The manna as well as the water was provided by God. Since the water was provided by Christ and came from a rock, Paul called Christ the spiritual rock which followed them. And the water was a spiritual drink because it was supernaturally provided by Christ.
JN 6:30 "They said therefore unto him, What sign do you show then, that we may see, and believe You? what work do you?
JN 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
JN 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
JN 6:33 For the bread of God is He which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world.
JN 6:34 Then said they unto Him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
JN 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that comes to Me shall never hunger; and he that believes on Me shall never thirst." Jesus is the food and the drink of Heaven and a spiritual Rock.

PS 78:35 "And they remembered that God was their Rock [in the wilderness], and the High God their redeemer."

PS 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a Rock save our God?

When the Scripture says that the Rock is spiritual it means just that, spiritual. There was the literal manna and water but then there was the spiritual bread and water that followed them to sustain their spirits.

You do not apply what is literal and a figure of speech properly. The Spirit can not bless otherwise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2012, 02:58 PM
 
12,230 posts, read 5,823,702 times
Reputation: 1918
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
JN 6:30 "They said therefore unto him, What sign do you show then, that we may see, and believe You? what work do you?
JN 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
JN 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
JN 6:33 For the bread of God is He which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world.
JN 6:34 Then said they unto Him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
JN 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that comes to Me shall never hunger; and he that believes on Me shall never thirst." Jesus is the food and the drink of Heaven and a spiritual Rock.

PS 78:35 "And they remembered that God was their Rock [in the wilderness], and the High God their redeemer."

PS 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a Rock save our God?

When the Scripture says that the Rock is spiritual it means just that, spiritual. There was the literal manna and water but then there was the spiritual bread and water that followed them to sustain their spirits.

You do not apply what is literal and a figure of speech properly. The Spirit can not bless otherwise.
It's not about the literal rock. It's about the source of the provision. The water was provided by God. So was every other need that the Israelites had. I've told you what Paul was referring to and yet you do not understand.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-30-2012 at 03:15 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2012, 03:15 PM
 
3,441 posts, read 1,413,926 times
Reputation: 798
Matthew 22:29-33

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

John 8:53-59

53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Malachi 3:6

Exodus 3:13-15

13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.


Revelation 1

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.




Zechariah 12:9-14

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

John 14:8-11


8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Jesus is YHWH God that became a MAN. Jesus says God is Spirit. God became a man taking on flesh of man to pay for the transgression. God man Messiah Jesus is the Son of the Father.
We are trying to reconcile the Godhead trinity with our finite created mortal brains. If Jesus said it, it's true. Lord Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Corinthians 1:14-17). He's not the Father. He's the Son, but the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. Jesus said he was the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty God. Claim it by faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2012, 03:26 PM
 
666 posts, read 228,515 times
Reputation: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Paul was referencing Ex 17:6; Nu 20:11; Ps 78:15,20, 105:41; Isa 43:20, 48:21

---> 1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
I agree. The whole of 1 Cor. 10 is full of such reference. Paul was using the experience of Israel in the wilderness as typological of the walk of the Corinthian believers through life. However, I disagree that Paul was saying that Christ was literally with Israel in the wilderness.
Here’s an excerpt from James D.G Dunn book Christology in the Making:

Quote:
"It is hardly likely that Paul intended to identify Christ as the wilderness rock in any literal sense.So "the rock was Christ" must denote some sort of allegorical identification:The rock *represents* Christ in some way;as water from the rock,so spiritual drink from Christ.But is it an allegory of the realities *then* operative,or something more in the line of a *typological* allegory of the spiritual realities now experienced by the Corinthians?The latter seems the more probable,not least because Paul HIMSELF describes the whole affair as *types* and as happening to the Israelites *typologically* in verses 6 and 11.In verses 1-2 it is fairly obvious that the phrase "baptized into Moses" has been modelled on the more familiar Pauline formulation,"baptized into Christ"(Rom. 6:3,1 Cor. 12:13,Gal. 3:27):the passage "through the sea" and "under the cloud" simply provided a typological parallel to the event of becoming a member of Christ--hence "baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea" modelled on "baptized into Christ in the Spirit"(1 Cor. 12:13).The Israelites can be said to have been "baptized" only as a reflection backwards into the Exodus narrative of what the Corinthians had experienced;and can be said to have been "baptized into Moses" only because Moses served as the typological counterpart of Christ.Similarly with the latter half of the parallel(verses 3-4):the manna from heaven and the water from the rock were simply types of the spiritual sustenance received by Christians from Christ.In the first half of the midrash it was unnecessary to identify Moses as the type of Christ--that would have been obvious anyway,and the "baptized into Moses" rendered a specific identification superfluous.In the latter half however,the type of Christ is less obvious.So to clarify his exegesis Paul simply adds the interpretive note, "the rock was Christ"--that is,to understand the full message of those wilderness narratives in their application to the situation of the Corinthians.(verses 6,11)Paul's readers should see the rock then as equivalent to Christ now.In other words,Paul says to his readers:if you compare yourselves to the Israelites you will see what peril you are in.They experienced the equivalent of what we have experienced:they went through what we call a baptism;they enjoyed what we call "spiritual food"--you only need to equate Moses with Christ(so "baptized into Moses")and the rock with Christ to see how close the parallel is to your situation--and yet look what happened to them(verses 5,9)"These things have become types of,or for you"(verse 6);they "happened to the Israelites typologically,but were written down for our instruction"(verse 11)--so be warned!

Paul then may indeed have been aware of Philo's identification of the rock with wisdom,or at least of Alexandrian Judaism's readiness to interpret the events of the exodus and wilderness wanderings allegorically.But where Philo used the historical narrative as a picture of the more timeless(Platonic) encounter between God and man,Paul used it as a picture of the eschatological realities that now pertain since the coming of Christ.In this typological interpretation it is not actually implied nor does it follow that Paul intended to identify Christ with Wisdom(since the rock=Wisdom,therefore Christ=rock=Wisdom).Nor does it follow that Christ was thought of as having existed at the time of the wilderness wanderings.All we can safely say is that the allegorical interpretation of Philo(or of Alexandrian Judaism) may well have prompted the more typological interpretation of Paul:as rock=Wisdom in Alexandrian allegory,so rock=Christ in Christian typology.In short,it is not sufficiently probable that 1 Cor. 10:4 refers to Christ as preexistent for us to make anything of it in our inquiry."

from "Christology in the Making" by James D.G Dunn pp. 183-184.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2012, 04:20 PM
 
2,258 posts, read 734,354 times
Reputation: 274
1COR 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
The language is as plain as day, the Rock followed them. Rocks do not follow people, only the Rock did.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2012, 05:19 PM
 
666 posts, read 228,515 times
Reputation: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
1COR 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
The language is as plain as day, the Rock followed them. Rocks do not follow people, only the Rock did.
1Co 10:4 can be translated as the rock ‘accompanied’ them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2012, 06:32 PM
 
2,258 posts, read 734,354 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
1Co 10:4 can be translated as the rock ‘accompanied’ them.
Yes, I suppose it could but it comes out the same, a literal rock does not accompany people, Only a living Rock can do that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top