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I understand the thinking, but do not believe it is Biblical. Jesus never commanded we make the sign of the cross; neither did His apostles. Jesus gave us immersion (which is what "baptism" means) for repentant sinners to demonstrate a heart that has died to sin and self, and risen to new life in Christ (a picture of the born again experience). Christ also gave the Lord's Supper (not the Eucharist, where Christ is crucified afresh, against the teaching of Scripture) to remember His death and resurrection. These are symbols the Lord Jesus instituted.
To add tradition on top of tradition is like the Pharisees who made it impossible to keep all of the laws of the Mishnah and Midrash; which was being compiled while Jesus walked the earth. He deplored the bondage that was being laid upon His people. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:36 Free of what? Of sin and its bondage; also of man made regulations that keep a soul from knowing the joy of serving Christ simply by His Word and Spirit.
The sacrifice a truly born-anew soul gives to Christ is not a religious symbol about the neck or doing the sign of the cross, but a living sacrifice: holy, acceptable unto God. That means our apparel does not reveal nakedness, rebellion and loose living; because in the Bible nakedness was a sign of demon possession and judgment. Being a living sacrifice means we speak or write filthy talk; because that displays a heart full of demonic thoughts. A living sacrifice doesn't live for pleasure or selfish-ambitions; but for the enjoyment and glory of God, as He explains it in His Word. Romans 12 defines these things. [I'm not accusing you here; only giving an explanation of what I mean.]
Religious practices as an outward show at best are an unBiblical picture. In the New Testament the symbols and shadows were fulfilled. Jesus wants the reality in our hearts and lives, rather than religious genuflections.
i like your words, "The sacrifice a truly born-anew soul gives to Christ is not a religious symbol about the neck or doing the sign of the cross, but a living sacrifice: holy, acceptable unto God."
When God looks down at the depth of our heart, these are the things our Lord is looking for. Look at the words the Lord had said to Samuel when all David's older brothers had been passed up and David was anointed to be king after Saul. [See 1Sam.16:7] But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
This is similar to the words of David after he had confessed his acts of adultery and murder
and had been forgiven by the Lord. He said, [17] The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Location: East Central Pennsylvania/ Chicago for 6yrs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47
there is 0 evidence in existence on this earth, that Jesus died on a cross-- the greek word stauros translates--an upright pole or stake-- trinity translators wrote cross--they made many misleading errors in translating to fit Catholicism council dogmas.
Why would Jesus want a pagan death instrument as the front for his religion?( something that represents torture) it makes 0 sense-- anything pagan comes off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21) --Jesus would have 0 to do with anything off of that table.
Apparently you are not taught the Romans who did Jesus torture.... were Pagans. So.. it reasons, they did use a Pagan Roman ...T... to hang those for torture. As for Stauros... or reasons the Greek did not differentiate different words for a ... l or T to hang for torture. The T became a cross over time and some new sects turn it to a ... l ... denying history of Roman Torture.
staurós – the crosspiece of a Roman cross; the cross-beam (Latin, patibulum) placed at the top of the vertical member to form a capital "T." "This transverse beam was the one carried by the criminal" (Souter).
The New Testament writings about the crucifixion of Jesus do not speak specifically about the shape of that cross, but the early writings that do speak of its shape, from about the year 100 AD on, describe it as shaped like the letter T (the Greek letter tau) or as composed of an upright and a transverse beam, sometimes with a small projection in the upright.
IT REALLY IS IRREVELENT ON WHAT SHAPE OF WOOD JESUS WAS IMPLALED ON FOR TORTURE BY PAGAN ROMANS? ALL POWER WAS IN JESUS THE CHRIST BY HIS SHED BLOOD. THE WOOD HE HUNG HAD NONE.
Jehovah Witness see the cross symbol as pagan . Claiming it was merely a pole, stake ....and a reason, among many, they consider all Church Christians Pagan too. Really sad indeed, to claim True Faith is on anything other then Jesus the Christ, in this torture scene. Jesus tortured on a living tree would not change it even for us? ALL POWER WAS IN HIS SHEDDING OF BLOOD FOR US. SADLY.... THEY CHOSE TO SEPARATE TOTALLY FROM ANY AND ALL CHURCHES THAT EVER WERE.
The Cross has become the symbol of Christianity to the world, pagans to atheist recognize it. Early Christians utilized a fish.
and the fish represented Christ because the Greek word for fish "icthus" (or "icthys")and the letters in that word were used to stand for the initials of the Greek phrase translated into English as "Jesus, Son of God, Savior" I do believe. in any case, would some people be happier if Christians would put the image of a fish on top of their churches or "made the sign of the fish" as a sign of faith and praise for their Savior? again, St. Paul from the very beginning talked about "boasting.... only in the cross of Christ" (cf. Galatians 6:14) or preaching "Christ crucified" (1 Corinthians 2) so if the doctrine of the cross (Christ's suffering and death for our sins) is a corruption of His message then the rot set in really quick!!!
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 02-10-2015 at 08:50 PM..
Reason: more reasons
As Jesus made a sinner into a righteous man by telling him to go and sin no more, Jesus made the cross which was a Pagan sign into a Christian one by dying on it. As Jesus said to His mother, "See I make all things new."
We can look at the cross as a pagan sign or a Christian one. Jesus turned it into a Christian sign so Christians use it to remind us of the death and resurrection of our Lord. There is nothing wrong with outward signs. As humans we need them. Maybe when we get to heaven there won't be any since we won't need them there. We will only need being with God.
When a friend is leaving you can yell good-bye or you can wave your hand.
The both mean the same thing. One is verbal and the other is a gesture.
When a Christian does the sign of the cross it is basically a tiny prayer. Words do not need to come out of the mouth and God knows what is going on.
Ya see...I honestly don't view the sign of the cross as a prayer. I get what you're saying, and as I mentioned above, I wasn't trying to take a shot at you for it. If you want to do it...great. It's just not my thing.
Quote:
Do you have a cross in your church?
Of course! We have a few of them. But just looking at the cross doesn't constitute a prayer.
Apparently you are not taught the Romans who did Jesus torture.... were Pagans. So.. it reasons, they did use a Pagan Roman ...T... to hang those for torture. As for Stauros... or reasons the Greek did not differentiate different words for a ... l or T to hang for torture. The T became a cross over time and some new sects turn it to a ... l ... denying history of Roman Torture.
staurós – the crosspiece of a Roman cross; the cross-beam (Latin, patibulum) placed at the top of the vertical member to form a capital "T." "This transverse beam was the one carried by the criminal" (Souter).
The New Testament writings about the crucifixion of Jesus do not speak specifically about the shape of that cross, but the early writings that do speak of its shape, from about the year 100 AD on, describe it as shaped like the letter T (the Greek letter tau) or as composed of an upright and a transverse beam, sometimes with a small projection in the upright.
IT REALLY IS IRREVELENT ON WHAT SHAPE OF WOOD JESUS WAS IMPLALED ON FOR TORTURE BY PAGAN ROMANS? ALL POWER WAS IN JESUS THE CHRIST BY HIS SHED BLOOD. THE WOOD HE HUNG HAD NONE.
Jehovah Witness see the cross symbol as pagan . Claiming it was merely a pole, stake ....and a reason, among many, they consider all Church Christians Pagan too. Really sad indeed, to claim True Faith is on anything other then Jesus the Christ, in this torture scene. Jesus tortured on a living tree would not change it even for us? ALL POWER WAS IN HIS SHEDDING OF BLOOD FOR US. SADLY.... THEY CHOSE TO SEPARATE TOTALLY FROM ANY AND ALL CHURCHES THAT EVER WERE.
The Cross has become the symbol of Christianity to the world, pagans to atheist recognize it. Early Christians utilized a fish.
There is 0 proof--only theory--the greek word stauros= an upright pole or stake--and Jesus would never have a torture instrument as the front of his religion. it does make a difference--icons are forbidden in Gods word to be used.
some kiss the icon--some bow to a hand carved image--Catholicism added many pagan things--every encyclopedia( facts of history) says pagan additives were added to both Easter and christmas-- a true follower has 0 to do with anything pagan, its assured Jesus wouldn't.--its off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21)
There is 0 proof--only theory--the greek word stauros= an upright pole or stake--and Jesus would never have a torture instrument as the front of his religion. it does make a difference--icons are forbidden in Gods word to be used.
some kiss the icon--some bow to a hand carved image--Catholicism added many pagan things--every encyclopedia( facts of history) says pagan additives were added to both Easter and christmas-- a true follower has 0 to do with anything pagan, its assured Jesus wouldn't.--its off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21)
So let me ask you this, if Jesus were to die on something that was not pagan, what did He die on? There was no Christianity until He came and started it. The thing is is that when He was starting it, Christianity was maybe 20 people right? So no one else in the entire world were Christians. He was killed by the Romans in the way that the Romans killed people. They nailed Him to wood and hung Him there.
The cross is there to remind us of his suffering. It is not praised nor worshiped. We venerate the cross because Jesus died on it to save us from sin. Simple. When I pray, I look at a crucifix or a picture of Jesus or a statue of Jesus or a saint because those things help keep me on task to pray. They are not idols because there is only ONE GOD. They help me in my prayer life to get closer to God. What is wrong with help?
There is 0 proof--only theory--the greek word stauros= an upright pole or stake--and Jesus would never have a torture instrument as the front of his religion. it does make a difference--icons are forbidden in Gods word to be used.
some kiss the icon--some bow to a hand carved image--Catholicism added many pagan things--every encyclopedia( facts of history) says pagan additives were added to both Easter and christmas-- a true follower has 0 to do with anything pagan, its assured Jesus wouldn't.--its off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21)
You realize that scripture tells us that his hands were apart when they were nailed to the cross, right? They were not nailed together to a stake.
There is 0 proof--only theory--the greek word stauros= an upright pole or stake--and Jesus would never have a torture instrument as the front of his religion. it does make a difference--icons are forbidden in Gods word to be used.
some kiss the icon--some bow to a hand carved image--Catholicism added many pagan things--every encyclopedia( facts of history) says pagan additives were added to both Easter and christmas-- a true follower has 0 to do with anything pagan, its assured Jesus wouldn't.--its off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21)
No Christmas or Easter for you. A church building with just four walls and no religious decoration, and no singing either-------there is no singing in the NT. And I hope you only worship on Saturday and not on Sunday.
Julian658, FWIW both Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 refer to Christians singing "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" and James 5:14 talks about "SINGING praises" so apparently the early Church was making a "joyful noise" to the Lord from the get-go, LOL. some scholars believe that the first part of the Gospel of John was originally itself part of hymn to Christ as God--"in the beginning was the WORD ("logos") and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God....." that said, I tend to agree with the implications of the rest of what you are saying---- that if we only go with what is (apparently) EXPLICITLY ordered in Scripture and absolutely nothing else we end up with a very "bare bones" religion---one that does not celebrate "Christmas" and "Easter" or worship on Sunday and in point of fact does not believe in a "trinity" or even the ancient concept of Christ as fully "Emmanuel" really and truly "God AMONG US"---and by implication the "Logos" that St. John said was both "with" and indeed "was" (and eternally is) God is essentially a false belief???
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 02-11-2015 at 02:11 PM..
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