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The most exhaustive and complete description of the Trinity is found in the Athanasian Creed. That is the best reference for the fully formalized doctrine of the Trinity.
Where did it come from? About five centuries of arguments, theorycrafting, debates and folks like Emperor Constantine arbitrarily taking one side and making the opposition illegal.
Immediately after the apostles -- and even before they had all been killed off -- there were many hotly contested debates between Christians. Some claimed that Jesus was the One True God of Israel, and therefore not human. Some claimed he was not and that he was an ordinary mortal human who happened to be the Messiah. Some claimed there could only be One True God. Some claimed that there were Three Gods: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. All of this was before there was any sort of universally accepted canon of scripture. Generally, each group had their own canon that they looked to as proving their point of view to be the correct one.
The genius of the doctrine of the Trinity it manages agrees with everyone at the same time. It claimed that God was one and three at the same time. Jesus was both god and human at the same time. And it's roots in Greek philosophy made it very popular among the Greek speaking Gentile converts. (At the time, the majority of Christians lived in the eastern half of the empire, spoke Greek and were very Hellenized in their culture.) The flaw of course is that the Trinity is a logical contradiction: Three distinct things are actually one distinct thing ... both at the same time.
This proto-Catholic Church succeeded because they managed to agree with everyone and especially because several Bishops with of politically important cities were on their side: Byzantium, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Smyrna, Carthage and most importantly Rome. In a world where earthly power and religious truth both already emanated from the city of Rome, this made a huge difference. Residents of the Empire were expected to pray to the Roman Emperor as a living God after all.
When Constantine legalized Christianity and started making it into the official state religion, the terrifying military power of the Imperial Rome became a "heresy police" of sorts. Disagreeing with the officially recognized doctrines of the Empire might cost you your life. Most probably converted. Many did not and were killed or exiled.
It would still take until about 600 AD for the Imperial Church to finally hash out all the details of the Trinity as we know it today. Largely, it was a process of sorting out what the Trinity wasn't. The long list of early Christian "heresies" offer a great deal of insight into this. Somebody comes up with an idea about what God is like. If the Imperial Church agreed, it got added into the Trinity doctrine. If the Imperial Church disagreed, it became heresy and the military might of the Empire moved to destroy it.
So you are unaware of how the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at, from Scripture? Is that it?
Nonsense. The Trinity is what God has revealed about himself. I'm curious...do you know what the Trinity is even defined as? Do you have any idea how the doctrine is derived?
yes--derived at the councils of Catholicism--it does not exist.--Jesus and all his real teachers teach Jesus has a God-his Father( John 20:17, Rev 3:12--2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28, eph 1:13,17,2Cor 11:31, Coll 1:3-- 1Peter 1:3--Rev 1:6------God does not have a God. Jesus real teachers teach the same today---a small g belongs in the last line of John 1:1--the facts prove it.
yes--derived at the councils of Catholicism--it does not exist.--Jesus and all his real teachers teach Jesus has a God-his Father( John 20:17, Rev 3:12--2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28, eph 1:13,17,2Cor 11:31, Coll 1:3-- 1Peter 1:3--Rev 1:6------God does not have a God. Jesus real teachers teach the same today---a small g belongs in the last line of John 1:1--the facts prove it.
then what do you make of the commandment of Jesus to baptize "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19 which would seem to speak to the equality of all those named each with the other? what is the true meaning of "he who sees me sees the Father" (John 12:45), "the Father and I are ONE" (John 10:31), and "...just as You and I are ONE..." (John 17:21), or "...before Abraham was, I AM (John 8:58 but consult the story of Moses asking who is sending him to pharaoh---"tell him I AM sent you" (Exodus 3:14). frankly seems the entire gospel of John from the start ("in the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD WAS GOD...") seem to more than hint of what the true nature of Jesus was and so the Church has maintained that this is the true understanding of what is ultimately a sacred mystery of faith. God bless you and all who seek to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
The Trinity is only one God. It has three persons though. Your hand has five fingers but it's still one hand.
Pretty close....but the hand illustration breaks down because each finger is not fully the hand. Each finger is only part of the hand. In the Trinity, each member of the Trinity is fully and completely God. There are not 3 separate parts of God.
yes--derived at the councils of Catholicism--it does not exist.
You do realize that the doctrine of the Trinity is derived from Scriputre, right? It's not something that was just made up by a bunch of "evil Catholics".
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--Jesus and all his real teachers teach Jesus has a God-his Father( John 20:17, Rev 3:12--2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28, eph 1:13,17,2Cor 11:31, Coll 1:3-- 1Peter 1:3--Rev 1:6------God does not have a God. Jesus real teachers teach the same today---a small g belongs in the last line of John 1:1--the facts prove it.
You've now just thrown out a list of scriptures, shotgun-style. What are you trying to say? That Jesus is not God? Do you realize he claimed to be God, and that he was called God? He was also worshiped in the same manner as God the Father. Why would God allow Jesus to be worshiped if he wasn't God? Why would Jesus allow himself to be worshiped, if he wasn't God?
then what do you make of the commandment of Jesus to baptize "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19 which would seem to speak to the equality of all those named each with the other? what is the true meaning of "he who sees me sees the Father" (John 12:45), "the Father and I are ONE" (John 10:31), and "...just as You and I are ONE..." (John 17:21), or "...before Abraham was, I AM (John 8:58 but consult the story of Moses asking who is sending him to pharaoh---"tell him I AM sent you" (Exodus 3:14). frankly seems the entire gospel of John from the start ("in the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD WAS GOD...") seem to more than hint of what the true nature of Jesus was and so the Church has maintained that this is the true understanding of what is ultimately a sacred mystery of faith. God bless you and all who seek to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Trinity translations are erred to fit Catholicism council teachings.
The real rendering of the Hebrew in exodus is not I am--it is-- I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be.
The only word in greek for God= Theos--for God or god-- Ho Theos was in the 2nd line--it was not in the last line making it a small g.--carrying the biblical meaning--has godlike qualities--because Gods power went through Jesus( Acts 2:22)-- a few translations in history did it correctly.
John taught Jesus has a God-his Father-Rev 1:6--he would not contradict himself and place a capitol G in the last line of John 1:1-- and as well--John 17:1-6,26--Jesus clearly teaches here--the one(Father) who sent him = THE ONLY TRUE GOD-- verse 6=YHWH(Jehovah) , 26=YHWH(Jehovah)
this is bottom line reality of all truth, one had better be doing this daily--John 4:22-24=YHWH(Jehovah)
You do realize that the doctrine of the Trinity is derived from Scriputre, right? It's not something that was just made up by a bunch of "evil Catholics".
You've now just thrown out a list of scriptures, shotgun-style. What are you trying to say? That Jesus is not God? Do you realize he claimed to be God, and that he was called God? He was also worshiped in the same manner as God the Father. Why would God allow Jesus to be worshiped if he wasn't God? Why would Jesus allow himself to be worshiped, if he wasn't God?
Gods word teaches---while on earth--Jesus was made lower than the angels--it teaches not even angels get worship--so obviously one lower doesn't
The greek word proskenau--carried about 5 meanings from greek to English--1) worship to a God--2) obeisance to a king--plus 3 others
The Messiah was mortal--they bowed in obeisance--trinity translations erred putting worship in their translations.
No Jesus is not God--he taught--John 17:1-6,26--the one who sent him( Father) = THE ONLY TRUE GOD--verse 6=YHWH(Jehovah) , 26=YHWH(Jehovah)
Trinity translations are erred to fit Catholicism council teachings.
The real rendering of the Hebrew in exodus is not I am--it is-- I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be.
The only word in greek for God= Theos--for God or god-- Ho Theos was in the 2nd line--it was not in the last line making it a small g.--carrying the biblical meaning--has godlike qualities--because Gods power went through Jesus( Acts 2:22)
Acts 2 says nothing of that.
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John taught Jesus has a God-his Father-Rev 1:6--
That phrase does not suggest that he is not God. You do realize that elsewhere Jesus calls himself God, right? Even later on in the same chapter he calls himself the Alpha and Omega.
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he would not contradict himself and place a capitol G in the last line of John 1:1--
Actually...the original Greek text does say that he is God. There is no "a" in front of it, or anything to suggest that he is not God almighty.
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and as well--John 17:1-6,26--Jesus clearly teaches here--the one(Father) who sent him = THE ONLY TRUE GOD-- verse 6=YHWH(Jehovah) , 26=YHWH(Jehovah)
Saying that the Father is God does not suggest that the Son is not also God.
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this is bottom line reality of all truth, one had better be doing this daily--John 4:22-24
umm....what? I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say by this last point.
Tell me something....who is speaking in Revelation 1:17-22?
Why is God allowing the Son to be worshiped in Rev 4, if he's not God?
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