Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I do no such thing. I quote Scripture. What you propose is heresy, not based in Holy Scripture.
You blindly cite words "written in ink" that are improperly interpreted through the "precepts and doctrines of men" who retained the ancient ignorance of our ancestors as a sign of faith! I quote scripture and interpret it intelligently with rigorous exegesis, eisegesis and a great deal of knowledge. Christ is our safety net . . . not our meal ticket. We will reap what we sow in this life based on how well we follow Christ's commands to "love God and each other" daily. To avoid reaping we must repent whenever we have been NOT loving and our actions and attitudes violated Christ's commands. Good luck with your magic ticket through belief in the "precepts and doctrines of men." I will follow Christ's commands and take my heretical chances.
I don't know how well I'm going to be able to explain my position, but I'll give it a shot. To me, God absolutely must have laws. Otherwise, there would be only chaos. If He has laws and does not enforce them, He might as well not have them at all. I see Jesus Christ's Atonement as the means by which the demands of both justice and mercy can be satisfied. The debt incurred by us when we sin requires payment, but because God loves us so much, He has given us a means by which we can be forgiven through the sacrifice of His perfect Son. Provided we are truly repentant, the debt we've incurred can be repaid, and we can be forgiven. If God were simply to overlook the fact that we've sinned and not require that demands of justice to be met, He really wouldn't be the great God He is. He would be a parent who requires nothing of His children, who lets them get away with anything and therefore cannot realistically expect any growth on their part.
Hello Katz, thanks so much for weighing in. I didn't realize this thread was going to generate this much discussion. I'm so interested in what you said about justice and God's greatness..... I'm thinking hard about this subject, and I wonder why we tend to think that God's jubilant mercy (extended on condition of our repentance) would lessen His greatness? It's almost like, somehow, we hold His 'just' attribute above His 'merciful' one. I'm wondering... doesn't a pardon mean that the debt is written off, not that it is paid by someone else? Doesn't God long for us to turn our hearts back to Him and He will then forgive us? Also... I understand your point about 'getting off scott free' as it were... and how this is unacceptable to a just God and really bothers those of us with any moral sense of justice. So I was thinking... what about the parable Jesus told of the servant who had been forgiven a great debt by the King? He then went off and tried to exact payment of a much lesser debt from a fellow servant. When the King got wind of it, he recanted his pardon and made the servant pay back every last penny. I think that is very interesting!!
You blindly cite words "written in ink" that are improperly interpreted through the "precepts and doctrines of men" who retained the ancient ignorance of our ancestors as a sign of faith! I quote scripture and interpret it intelligently with rigorous exegesis, eisegesis and a great deal of knowledge. Christ is our safety net . . . not our meal ticket. We will reap what we sow in this life based on how well we follow Christ's commands to "love God and each other" daily. To avoid reaping we must repent whenever we have been NOT loving and our actions and attitudes violated Christ's commands. Good luck with your magic ticket through belief in the "precepts and doctrines of men." I will follow Christ's commands and take my heretical chances.
I back up my claims with Holy Scripture. You back up your claims with...your own opinion (the real "precepts and doctrines of men"). Best to let the reader decide for him/herself.
Don't worry about me. I claim Jesus.
Romans 8
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
You blindly cite words "written in ink" that are improperly interpreted through the "precepts and doctrines of men" who retained the ancient ignorance of our ancestors as a sign of faith! I quote scripture and interpret it intelligently with rigorous exegesis, eisegesis and a great deal of knowledge. Christ is our safety net . . . not our meal ticket. We will reap what we sow in this life based on how well we follow Christ's commands to "love God and each other" daily. To avoid reaping we must repent whenever we have been NOT loving and our actions and attitudes violated Christ's commands. Good luck with your magic ticket through belief in the "precepts and doctrines of men." I will follow Christ's commands and take my heretical chances.
You don't know the first thing about properly exegeting the Scriptures. You're so busy looking down your nose at what you call ancient ignorance and the precepts and doctrines of men, that you cannot see your own 'modern' ignorance, and your own unscriptural precepts, though there is really nothing new under the sun. You who deny the supernatural and think that 'the water of life' mentioned in John 7:38 is cerebral spinal fluid and not the Holy Spirit as the passage plainly states, call even the apostles to whom the Holy Spirit communicated the word of God, ignorant.
And do you even know what 'eisegesis' is? Apparently not, since eisegesis is all you seem cabable of. Eisegesis is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one's own ideas, reading into the text. This is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective. (definition from Wikipedia).
And knowledge you say? You have little knowledge of the Scriptures which you reject as 'words written in ink,' denying that it is the word of God.
You are only fooling yourself.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-31-2012 at 08:01 PM..
I back up my claims with Holy Scripture. You back up your claims with...your own opinion (the real "precepts and doctrines of men"). Best to let the reader decide for him/herself.
Don't worry about me. I claim Jesus.
Romans 8
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You don't know the first thing about properly exegeting the Scriptures. You're so busy looking down your nose at what you call ancient ignorance and the precepts and doctrines of men, that you cannot see your own 'modern' ignorance, and your own unscriptural precepts, though there is really nothing new under the sun. You who deny the supernatural and think that 'the water of life' mentioned in John 7:38 is cerebral spinal fluid and not the Holy Spirit as the passage plainly states, call even the apostles to whom the Holy Spirit communicated the word of God, ignorant.
And do you even know what 'eisegesis' is? Apparently not, since eisegesis is all you seem cabable of. Eisegesis is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one's own ideas, reading into the text. This is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective.
And knowledge you say? You have little knowledge of the Scriptures which you reject as 'words written in ink.'
I just want to point out that the vast majority of us bring our opinions or preconceived ideas to the Scriptures when we interpret them. It takes intention and humility and commitment to exegete objectively. Someone has yet to demonstrate from Scripture that God must leave no sin unpunished, including the ones we repent of, even though it seems to be the major consensus on this thread.......
Hi Jimmie... I agree, God's wrath abides on the unrepentant. So.. do sins we repent of still need to be punished (ie: in Jesus)? Or is God free to just let us go based on His mercy? Is a broken and contrite heart enough to turn aside God's wrath or does He demand punishment of sins in spite of repentance?
What do you think?
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
The Holy Eternal one can not look at sin (Habakkuk 1). So it seems it's either red like crimson or white as snow - no in between. In Isaiah 53 the LORD's righteous servant will justify many. He is our Passover Lamb. We are seen as white as snow in him.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Hebrews 7
22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." Isaiah 53:12
That's very comforting.
Hebrews 9
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
You don't know the first thing about properly exegeting the Scriptures. You're so busy looking down your nose at what you call ancient ignorance and the precepts and doctrines of men, that you cannot see your own 'modern' ignorance, and your own unscriptural precepts, though there is really nothing new under the sun. You who deny the supernatural and think that 'the water of life' mentioned in John 7:38 is cerebral spinal fluid and not the Holy Spirit as the passage plainly states, call even the apostles to whom the Holy Spirit communicated the word of God, ignorant.
And do you even know what 'eisegesis' is? Apparently not, since eisegesis is all you seem cabable of. Eisegesis is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one's own ideas, reading into the text. This is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective. (definition from Wikipedia).
Wikipedia is an unreliable source that can be edited by any moron at will. Eisegesis involves the use of extra scriptural knowledge and sources . . . NOT the application of personal bias or views. Restricting your source to the ancient ignorance compiled in the Bible by men corrupts the understanding of the actual spiritual inspirations that God led them to. Failure to apply over 2000+ years of accumulated knowledge and understanding to the scriptures is spiritual negligence on the part of religious leaders who have abdicated their responsibility to revise their understanding . . . instead of stagnating at the level of ignorance in the 1st century.
Quote:
And knowledge you say? You have little knowledge of the Scriptures which you reject as 'words written in ink,' denying that it is the word of God.
You are only fooling yourself.
I tire of this repeated lie . . . I do NOT reject the scriptures. I know the scriptures are God-inspired . . . but they were NOT God-dictated and are NOT inerrant. They require knowledge (or the "mind of Christ" as in WWJD) to discern what the real spiritual messages are . . . not merely to blindly accept the carnal "milk" that was necessary for our savage ancestors' minds.
This one is all me, Jerwade . . . feel free to use it.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I didn't realize this thread was going to generate this much discussion. I'm so interested in what you said about justice and God's greatness..... I'm thinking hard about this subject, and I wonder why we tend to think that God's jubilant mercy (extended on condition of our repentance) would lessen His greatness? It's almost like, somehow, we hold His 'just' attribute above His 'merciful' one. I'm wondering... doesn't a pardon mean that the debt is written off, not that it is paid by someone else? Doesn't God long for us to turn our hearts back to Him and He will then forgive us? Also... I understand your point about 'getting off scott free' as it were... and how this is unacceptable to a just God and really bothers those of us with any moral sense of justice. So I was thinking... what about the parable Jesus told of the servant who had been forgiven a great debt by the King? He then went off and tried to exact payment of a much lesser debt from a fellow servant. When the King got wind of it, he recanted his pardon and made the servant pay back every last penny. I think that is very interesting!!
