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Ignatius did not give the church the TITLE name catholic. He used the term catholic to describe the universality of the church. He said where Jesus was, there was the church. If he renamed the church, then he departed from the truth, the apostle's doctrine. I don't think you oughta lay that on Ignatius.
Blessings,
Katie
Katie:
You need to study The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Hope that helps your quest. The term catholic was already in used as early as 107AD.
That one thread is interesting, but I think it's options were too limited to a simple yes/no which maybe made it more confrontational than is necessary. Hopefully this will be a bit less so.
I'll add some links to explain the difference between Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy as well as some other terms.
I allowed for voting for more than one as at least some historians would say Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Oriental Orthodoxy are equally old. As for Anglicans I know of "High Anglicans" who feel they are the development of Early English Christianity and that the others diverged from Early Christianity in unjustified ways.
I have never heard that before. Huh. I am Anglican, and I thought including Anglican in the poll was sort of a joke!
Ignatius did not give the church the TITLE name catholic. He used the term catholic to describe the universality of the church. He said where Jesus was, there was the church. If he renamed the church, then he departed from the truth, the apostle's doctrine. I don't think you oughta lay that on Ignatius.
Blessings,
Katie
I agree that Ignatius did not give the Catholic Church its name. Re-read my post.
Ignatius, speaking to other believers, referred to the Catholic Church in a casual manner...almost off-handedly saying, "as we all know...". This suggests that the name was already in wide-spread use.
But there's more...here are additional Early Christians referring to the "Catholic Church" prior to AD 250...long before Constantine legalized Christianity:
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
“When at last he had finished his prayer, in which he remembered all who had met with him ant any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 8:1, [A.D. 156]).
“And certainly the most admirable Polycarp was one of these [elect], in whose times among us he showed himself an apostolic and prophetic teacher and bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna.”(The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2, [A.D. 156]).
Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“Where was [the heretic] Marcian, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus [AD 138-161] for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus [AD 175-189], until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled. . . . Afterward . . . Marcian professed repentance and agreed to the conditions granted to him – that he should receive reconciliation if he restored to the Church all the others whom he had been training for perdition; he was prevented, however, by death.” (Demurrer Against the Heretics, 20, [A.D. 200]).
Clement of Alexandria
“From what has been said, then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design, are just. . . . We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just.” (Stromaties 7:17:107:3 [A.D. 202]).
"... There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to Gods ordinance.... In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church ..."
Cyprian of Carthage
“They who have not peace themselves now offer peace to others. They who have withdrawn from the Church promise to lead back and to recall the lapsed to the Church. There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.” (Letter of Cyprian to All His People 43 (40), 5 [A.D. 251]).
“Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” (Letters 66 [A.D. 253]).
I picked the RCC and all the Orthodox (including non-Chalcedonian/Oriental) ones. They all recognize Apostolic succession and were indeed started by the Apostles themselves (not by a just some guy thousands of years later and based on a book of the Apostles' writings) and they were united before the Council of Chalcedon and the schism of 1054 (though they all didn't recognize papal primacy, of course) and met with each other in ecumenical councils (like the Council of Chalcedon among many).
And that unity of Apostolic churches was described as "catholic" (universal) until the schisms, when the Orthodox churches took on other names/labels.
That's my opinion. I won't debate it. It's a waste of time and energy to do so as other threads have shown.
I have never heard that before. Huh. I am Anglican, and I thought including Anglican in the poll was sort of a joke!
My sister met a guy like that and C. S. Lewis occasionally hinted at it.
I wonder if some of them are maybe influenced by what's called "The Old Catholic Church." The OCC isn't Anglican, but it's in communion with the Anglicans and reject the First Vatican Council. Particularly they reject the Immaculate Conception of Mary and Papal Infallibility. I know of Anglicans who feel those two are significant enough "divergences" that Traditionalist Anglo-Catholicism is more right/traditional. Although I think those Anglicans do recognize Orthodoxy as also descending from the Apostolic Age.
I actually considered including even more groups, but wasn't sure which ones to include. I intended to put Assyrians/Nestorians in there though and I'm maybe disappointed I didn't. Also "Bible-Alone Christians" as that seems to be a thing for many here even if, from my perspective, that's basically just Protestantism.
Note: I didn't vote as a kind of neutrality thing. Also see you next Sunday!
Last edited by Thomas R.; 02-05-2012 at 10:27 PM..
You need to study The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Hope that helps your quest. The term catholic was already in used as early as 107AD.
Julian,
You need to read the Bible. The apostles called the church the "church of God," "church of Christ." Catholic is not found in the scriptures, and Ignatius who coined the term was not an inspired writer. Keep in mind that Ignatius wrote some 70 odd years after the church of Christ had been established.
The job of the episcopate was to teach and preserve the apostle's doctrine. It wasn't to make new laws and change what was first instituted by Christ and given to the apostles.
If Ignatius was renaming the church, and I don't believe he was, then he was doing it by his own authority.
As for me, I'll stick with the apostle's doctrine.
Hope this helps you to see that the Bible is our sole authority, and not the doctrines and traditions of the RCC.
I agree that Ignatius did not give the Catholic Church its name. Re-read my post.
Ignatius, speaking to other believers, referred to the Catholic Church in a casual manner...almost off-handedly saying, "as we all know...". This suggests that the name was already in wide-spread use.
But there's more...here are additional Early Christians referring to the "Catholic Church" prior to AD 250...long before Constantine legalized Christianity:
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
“When at last he had finished his prayer, in which he remembered all who had met with him ant any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 8:1, [A.D. 156]).
“And certainly the most admirable Polycarp was one of these [elect], in whose times among us he showed himself an apostolic and prophetic teacher and bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna.”(The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2, [A.D. 156]).
Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“Where was [the heretic] Marcian, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus [AD 138-161] for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus [AD 175-189], until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled. . . . Afterward . . . Marcian professed repentance and agreed to the conditions granted to him – that he should receive reconciliation if he restored to the Church all the others whom he had been training for perdition; he was prevented, however, by death.” (Demurrer Against the Heretics, 20, [A.D. 200]).
Clement of Alexandria
“From what has been said, then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design, are just. . . . We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just.” (Stromaties 7:17:107:3 [A.D. 202]).
"... There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to Gods ordinance.... In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church ..."
Cyprian of Carthage
“They who have not peace themselves now offer peace to others. They who have withdrawn from the Church promise to lead back and to recall the lapsed to the Church. There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.” (Letter of Cyprian to All His People 43 (40), 5 [A.D. 251]).
“Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” (Letters 66 [A.D. 253]).
Thank you for clarifying.
My faith comes from the scriptures. The forty men who wrote the Bible were inspired by God. Therefore, my sole authority is the scriptures.
I enjoy reading early church history, and I have all of my catholic friends to thank for turning me on to it. However, early church history is not inspired. What stands out about it for me is how you can read the way the early christians departed from the truth of the doctrine of Christ and the apostles, and the further away from the time when the church was established on the day of Pentecost, the more we see departure from the truth.
There is nothing about the RCC that resembles the church in the New Testament.
Blessings,
You need to read the Bible. The apostles called the church the "church of God," "church of Christ." Catholic is not found in the scriptures, and Ignatius who coined the term was not an inspired writer. Keep in mind that Ignatius wrote some 70 odd years after the church of Christ had been established.
Katie:
No one says that the church was called catholic 33 AD. However, within a very short time the term Catholic was used.
Quote:
The job of the episcopate was to teach and preserve the apostle's doctrine. It wasn't to make new laws and change what was first instituted by Christ and given to the apostles.
Katie:
Jesus left NO WRITINGS. He simply delegated to Peter and the Apostles.
Quote:
If Ignatius was renaming the church, and I don't believe he was, then he was doing it by his own authority.
However, if he had called it Christian it would have been OK? Catholic simply means the church was the Universal Church. That is the reason why the term was used.
Quote:
Hope this helps you to see that the Bible is our sole authority, and not the doctrines and traditions of the RCC.
The Bible NT is a Catholic book put together by the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic church who decided which books went and and what was excluded. The Catholic church had no idea that you and your followers would be looking for the word Catholic in the church hundreds of years later. There was no need to justify the name of the Church in the Bible as this was clearly explained in many other writings and the catechism. The catholics use the Bible and the traditions which you folks conveniently exclude
751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. the equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."
752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body.
Symbols of the Church
753 In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. the images taken from the Old Testament are variations on a profound theme: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body.144 Around this center are grouped images taken "from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage."145
754 "The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep.146
755 "The Church is a cultivated field, the tillage of God. On that land the ancient olive tree grows whose holy roots were the prophets and in which the reconciliation of Jews and Gentiles has been brought about and will be brought about again. That land, like a choice vineyard, has been planted by the heavenly cultivator. Yet the true vine is Christ who gives life and fruitfulness to the branches, that is, to us, who through the Church remain in Christ, without whom we can do nothing.147
756 "Often, too, the Church is called the building of God. the Lord compared himself to the stone which the builders rejected, but which was made into the comer-stone. On this foundation the Church is built by the apostles and from it the Church receives solidity and unity. This edifice has many names to describe it: the house of God in which his family dwells; the household of God in the Spirit; the dwelling-place of God among men; and, especially, the holy temple. This temple, symbolized in places of worship built out of stone, is praised by the Fathers and, not without reason, is compared in the liturgy to the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. As living stones we here on earth are built into it. It is this holy city that is seen by John as it comes down out of heaven from God when the world is made anew, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.148
757 "The Church, further, which is called 'that Jerusalem which is above' and 'our mother', is described as the spotless spouse of the spotless lamb. It is she whom Christ 'loved and for whom he delivered himself up that he might sanctify her.' It is she whom he unites to himself by an unbreakable alliance, and whom he constantly 'nourishes and cherishes.'"149
II. THE CHURCH'S ORIGIN, FOUNDATION AND MISSION
758 We begin our investigation of the Church's mystery by meditating on her origin in the Holy Trinity's plan and her progressive realization in history.
A plan born in the Father's heart
759 "The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,"150 to which he calls all men in his Son. "The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ."151 This "family of God" is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father's plan. In fact, "already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvellous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Advance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time.152
The Church - foreshadowed from the world's beginning
760 Christians of the first centuries said, "The world was created for the sake of the Church."153 God created the world for the sake of communion with his divine life, a communion brought about by the "convocation" of men in Christ, and this "convocation" is the Church. the Church is the goal of all things,154 and God permitted such painful upheavals as the angels' fall and man's sin only as occasions and means for displaying all the power of his arm and the whole measure of the love he wanted to give the world:
Just as God's will is creation and is called "the world," so his intention is the salvation of men, and it is called "the Church."155
The Church - prepared for in the Old Covenant
761 The gathering together of the People of God began at the moment when sin destroyed the communion of men with God, and that of men among themselves. the gathering together of the Church is, as it were, God's reaction to the chaos provoked by sin. This reunification is achieved secretly in the heart of all peoples: "In every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable" to God.156
762 The remote preparation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people.157 Its immediate preparation begins with Israel's election as the People of God. By this election, Israel is to be the sign of the future gathering of All nations.158 But the prophets accuse Israel of breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute. They announce a new and eternal covenant. "Christ instituted this New Covenant."159
The Church - instituted by Christ Jesus
763 It was the Son's task to accomplish the Father's plan of salvation in the fullness of time. Its accomplishment was the reason for his being sent.160 "The Lord Jesus inaugurated his Church by preaching the Good News, that is, the coming of the Reign of God, promised over the ages in the scriptures."161 To fulfill the Father's will, Christ ushered in the Kingdom of heaven on earth. the Church "is the Reign of Christ already present in mystery."162
764 "This Kingdom shines out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ."163 To welcome Jesus' word is to welcome "the Kingdom itself."164 The seed and beginning of the Kingdom are the "little flock" of those whom Jesus came to gather around him, the flock whose shepherd he is.165 They form Jesus' true family.166 To those whom he thus gathered around him, he taught a new "way of acting" and a prayer of their own.167
765 The Lord Jesus endowed his community with a structure that will remain until the Kingdom is fully achieved. Before all else there is the choice of the Twelve with Peter as their head.168Representing the twelve tribes of Israel, they are the foundation stones of the new Jerusalem.169 The Twelve and the other disciples share in Christ's mission and his power, but also in his lot.170 By all his actions, Christ prepares and builds his Church.
766 The Church is born primarily of Christ's total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the cross. "The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus."171 "For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth the 'wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.'"172 As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam's side, so the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.173
The Church - revealed by the Holy Spirit
767 "When the work which the Father gave the Son to do on earth was accomplished, the Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost in order that he might continually sanctify the Church."174 Then "the Church was openly displayed to the crowds and the spread of the Gospel among the nations, through preaching, was begun."175 As the "convocation" of all men for salvation, the Church in her very nature is missionary, sent by Christ to all the nations to make disciples of them.176
768 So that she can fulfill her mission, the Holy Spirit "bestows upon [the Church] varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her."177 "Henceforward the Church, endowed with the gifts of her founder and faithfully observing his precepts of charity, humility and self-denial, receives the mission of proclaiming and establishing among all peoples the Kingdom of Christ and of God, and she is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom."178
The Church - perfected in glory
769 "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,"179 at the time of Christ's glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world's persecutions and God's consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, 'from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,' . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father's presence."182
Last edited by cmforte; 02-06-2012 at 10:20 AM..
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Catholic simply means the church was the Universal Church. That is the reason why the term was used. 
. There was no need to justify the name of the Church in the Bible as this was clearly explained in many other writings and the catechism. The catholics use the Bible and the traditions which you folks conveniently exclude
