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I'm being tough on Mike here cause the view he's espousing is the pretty much identical to what I've been listening to. So Mike I'm asking you the questions I would want to ask him. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
One thing regarding the "partaker view" in which all that are saved, Justified by the blood past tense born-again forever upon believing eternally secure with zero conditions on our part, possibly those outside the "Kingdom of God" are still saved but in the "Outer Darkness". Clearly there looks to be conditions of fellowship and obedience to to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Many of the Parables suggest a performance (Parable of the Talents). The unprofitable "servant" (the Lord called him servant) was cast into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. While that doesn't sound pleasant at all, it may not be Gehenna.
The reason partly being the two resurrections - one for the saved and one for the unsaved (end of the millennium). The people coming up to the Lord are evidently doing it upon the first resurrection - resurrection of the Living which will serve him in the Millennium.
So possibly while saved from Perdition by God's faithfulness in Christ being eternally secure by his Seal of the Holy Spirit, the wicked,unprofitable servant is cast outside the Kingdom into outer Darkness where they're still saved from Damnation but outside the Kingdom of God.
I'm going to spend some time getting into the grammar following up on Mike's post to understand the Justification past-tense once and for all. The Lord does say the Holy Spirit is sealed with the person "Forever". This does imply there is absolutely no way the person and the Holy Spirit could be separate thus no possibility of Perdition which by definition is eternal Separation from God.
A couple of interesting passages..
1 Peter 4:17-19
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Scary results it looks like for those that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It says those that don't obey the gospel shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. Wow sure sounds like Gehenna.
It is just so hard for me to reconcile that obeying the gospel is not a requirement.
Interesting take on the Parable of Sowers. I tried to reconcile the first group as being sealed in my studies but couldn't (lest they be converted etc)
As I said, the first group was not saved.
Quote:
Regarding Matthew 7, it seems like in reference to false prophets, he's talking about their works. He goes on which the logic that man doesn't pick thorns (symbolizing God doesn't pick them either with the same logic)
What do false prophets do? They teach! Their bad fruit was what they were teaching. Now, the Pharisees did do good deeds humanly speaking. But they did them for the wrong reasons - to be seen doing them. Despite their good deeds, Jesus called them hypocrites.
Quote:
He says we can identify Chrisians by their fruits. Read "Works". We can't tell whether or not someone is born-again, but we can see their fruits to get an idea.
Matthew 7
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
In verse 16 however, He was referring to the false prophets.
Quote:
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Quote:
So God identifies Christians by their fruits right?
The thing is, is that a Christian may produce good fruit, or may never produce good fruit. The only way a believer can produce good fruit - works which are found by God to be 'gold, silver and precious stones' is when he is filled with the Holy Spirit. It is actually the Holy Spirit who is producing the fruit. If a person becomes saved, but never learns that he must name his sins to God to be restored to fellowship under the control of the Holy Spirit, the only fruit or works he can produce is 'wood, hay and straw' which will be burned up. Or a believer may simply retrogress in his spiritual life and stop naming his sins to God, and remain in a constant state of carnality.
But any unbeliever can do things which from a human perspective are good deeds. In fact, many unbelievers put most believers to shame in the area of doing charitable things and helping people. And they may have the best of intentions with their deeds.
However, the Pharisees were great good deed doers. But they were hypocrites who did their deeds to be seen doing them (Matthew 23:5). And most of the Pharisees were not saved.
Quote:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
I find it interesting it says "cast out devils". As you recall, the Pharisees attributed his casting out demons in through Beelzebub (the unforgivable sin). So if these people were casting out devils, than they must have had the Holy Spirit to do it no? Then the Lord gives us the remedy to avoid this - doing the words we hear with a relationship not practicing iniquity.
Not doing the words we hear, not having a relationship, and practicing iniquity evidently = not entering the Kingdom of Heaven. No?
It should be noted that Matthew 5,6,7 wasn't spoken to the "multitudes" (meaning Pharisee) but his disciples.
Matthew 5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
His sermon was to his disciples.
No it wasn't. Regarding Matthew 5,6,7, Matthew 7:28 states 'The result was that when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were amazed at His teaching; 29] for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. Jesus went up on the mountain so that the crowd could see Him and probably so that His voice would carry further.
As for the will of the Father, His will is that the unbeliever believe in Christ for salvation. Do you remember what I posted concerning John 6:27-29. The only work of God that endures to eternal life is to believe in Jesus Christ. See post #80
Satan can fake an 'exorcism.' Just as a demon can enter into the body of an unbeliever under certain conditions, he can choose to leave the body of the unbeliever. A false prophet goes through the motions of 'exercising' the demon, but the demon is really just leaving of his own accord, thereby faking 'the casting out of demons.' The witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28 was in league with demons and was faking bringing up the dead.
Quote:
It's interesting it appears the same event is recalled in the Gospel of Luke but expressed a little differently. It might not be a different event entirely.
Luke 13:23-27
23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Strive - Strong's G75 - agōnizomai 1) to enter a contest: contend in the gymnastic games 2) to contend with adversaries, fight 3) metaph. to contend, struggle, with difficulties and dangers 4) to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
This passage suggests a struggle/ to contend with adversaries/ a fight is associated with entering the Kingdom. But maybe it's associated with Rewards in the Kingdom. Like someone asking what it takes to pass the course, but the teacher responding in the attitude one needs to get a 100%. The Lord's response; however, is in response to someone asking if many are Saved.
After the Hall of faith chapter (Hebrews 11)
Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
So I'm not completely convinced that repenting/believing/obeying/trusting aren't all in the same category in which obedience to the faith is not a requirement. But I'm still checking it out.
The concern I have is regarding Repenting. It doesn't seem to get enough respect sometimes. Repenting was the first thing coming out of the mouth of the Lord when he started his ministry. True repentance involves a transformation producing fruit. That's what it's all about.
The Lord wants fruit.
Yes, the Lord wants fruit. And the believer will be rewarded for his fruit at the judgment seat of Christ. But if the only fruit he has is 'wood, hay and straw,' that fruit will be burned up, but the believer will be saved as per 1 Cor 3:11-15). No fruit means a loss of eternal rewards. Not a loss of eternal life.
Obedience is not a part of faith. Obedience is something you DO. And it is meritorious. Something you can take credit for and boast of. Faith is non-meritorious and get no credit for. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes that clear.
If, and you are, saved in one moment of time, at the time you simply believe in Christ, what obedience can you have in that moment of time?
The only obedience the unbeliever can have is to obey the command to believe in Jesus Christ. Again, see post #80.
I'm being tough on Mike here cause the view he's espousing is the pretty much identical to what I've been listening to. So Mike I'm asking you the questions I would want to ask him. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
One thing regarding the "partaker view" in which all that are saved, Justified by the blood past tense born-again forever upon believing eternally secure with zero conditions on our part, possibly those outside the "Kingdom of God" are still saved but in the "Outer Darkness". Clearly there looks to be conditions of fellowship and obedience to to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Many of the Parables suggest a performance (Parable of the Talents). The unprofitable "servant" (the Lord called him servant) was cast into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. While that doesn't sound pleasant at all, it may not be Gehenna.
The reason partly being the two resurrections - one for the saved and one for the unsaved (end of the millennium). The people coming up to the Lord are evidently doing it upon the first resurrection - resurrection of the Living which will serve him in the Millennium.
So possibly while saved from Perdition by God's faithfulness in Christ being eternally secure by his Seal of the Holy Spirit, the wicked,unprofitable servant is cast outside the Kingdom into outer Darkness where they're still saved from Damnation but outside the Kingdom of God.
I'm going to spend some time getting into the grammar following up on Mike's post to understand the Justification past-tense once and for all. The Lord does say the Holy Spirit is sealed with the person "Forever". This does imply there is absolutely no way the person and the Holy Spirit could be separate thus no possibility of Perdition which by definition is eternal Separation from God.
A couple of interesting passages..
1 Peter 4:17-19
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Scary results it looks like for those that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It says those that don't obey the gospel shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. Wow sure sounds like Gehenna.
It is just so hard for me to reconcile that obeying the gospel is not a requirement.
Obeying the gospel is a requirement. But obeying the gospel simply means to believe in Jesus Christ. For the most part, I covered that in post #80.
I'll add this.
John 3:36 '"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Notice the phrase 'does not obey.' It is translated from the Greek word apeitheó. And apeitheó means the following;
To disobey the Son in John 3:36 means to refuse to be persuaded, or to refuse to believe.
The King James therefore translates John 3:36 as 'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.'
In 2 Thessalonians 1:8 'dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
The phrase 'do not obey' is translated from a different Greek word, hupakouó which means;
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5219 hypakoúō (from 5259 /hypó, "under" and 191 /akoúō, "hear") – properly, to obey what is heard (literally, "under hearing"). See 5218 (hypakoē).
5219 /hypakoúō ("obey") is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order). 5219 /hypakoúō ("to hearken, obey") suggests attentively listening, i.e. fully compliant (responsive).
Hold the phone then we agree that believing/trusting/obeying are all virtually equivalent and that we can't really separate the terms.
Maybe the Olivet Discourse was to the multitudes, but maybe not.
Matthew 7
28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Who are the people though? The Disciples or the Multitudes?
Matthew 5
1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
It don't really matter I guess.
Believe = Obey.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
The will of the Father is to believe/obey the Son. So belief is active not passive.
If someone tells me to move because a truck is going to run me over and I believe him, I am going to move. Obeying is not a "Work" and not entirely passive on our part though. So those not obeying aren't believing which means they are being unbelieving and rebellious.
So a nonobeying/rebellious, unbelieving born-again Christian would not be subject to God's wrath but eternally secure in his Salvation? Maybe this is just a hypothetical in which us not understanding the Power of God to conform those whom he seals into the image of his son. I sometimes wonder if that's our problem when we attempt to reconcile this with our finite mortal brains.
Wild stuff.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
If all are saved by faith as Abraham, than this passage is an action of one's faith. Turning away from our wicked ways is associated with living. Lord Jesus says Repent or we will all perish. Life is associated with a turning from one's ways (read it "Choices"/Works). I think there is confusion regarding "Keeping the Law" and "Obedience of Faith". The first is one putting their trust in Keeping all the Law without submitting to the redeemer Messiah by Faith. The latter is putting their trust in Messiah that kept the law depending on His righteousness with submitting to him with the response of obedience of Faith. The Pharisees stumbled at the stumbling stone because they did not submit to the righteousness of the Messiah by faith (Romans 9) but attempted to establish their own "Keeping the Law" - not even the Mosaic Law really I guess as it was also oral tradition as well.
Is there a condition for us to be positionally "in Christ"? Does our walk affect our position "in Christ"? It seems if we don't obey the gospel in our walk producing fruit, the answer is yes.
Luke 13:6-9
6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 12:35
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
Luke 8:17-18
17For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Matthew 21:42-43
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Matthew 13
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
I'm not entirely convinced that only the good ground group bringing forth fruit is not the only group saved.
Hebrews 6:7-8
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
The Lord Jesus says in Matt 7 man doesn't pick thorns using that logic to suggest God doesn't either.
Philippians 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I know the common thought is Philippians 2 is referring to Sanctification, but maybe Sanctification is required for Justification. No? Still researching.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 02-08-2012 at 10:06 AM..
Hold the phone then we agree that believing/trusting/obeying are all virtually equivalent and that we can't really separate the terms.
Maybe the Olivet Discourse was to the multitudes, but maybe not.
Matthew 7
28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Who are the people though? The Disciples or the Multitudes?
Matthew 5
1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
It don't really matter I guess.
Believe = Obey.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
The will of the Father is to believe/obey the Son. So belief is active not passive.
If someone tells me to move because a truck is going to run me over and I believe him, I am going to move. Obeying is not a "Work" and not entirely passive on our part though. So those not obeying aren't believing which means they are being unbelieving and rebellious.
So a nonobeying/rebellious, unbelieving born-again Christian would not be subject to God's wrath but eternally secure in his Salvation? Maybe this is just a hypothetical in which us not understanding the Power of God to conform those whom he seals into the image of his son. I sometimes wonder if that's our problem when we attempt to reconcile this with our finite mortal brains.
Wild stuff.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
If all are saved by faith as Abraham, than this passage is an action of one's faith. Turning away from our wicked ways is associated with living. Lord Jesus says Repent or we will all perish. Life is associated with a turning from one's ways (read it "Choices"/Works). I think there is confusion regarding "Keeping the Law" and "Obedience of Faith". The first is one putting their trust in Keeping all the Law without submitting to the redeemer Messiah by Faith. The latter is putting their trust in Messiah that kept the law depending on His righteousness with submitting to him with the response of obedience of Faith. The Pharisees stumbled at the stumbling stone because they did not submit to the righteousness of the Messiah by faith (Romans 9) but attempted to establish their own "Keeping the Law" - not even the Mosaic Law really I guess as it was also oral tradition as well.
Is there a condition for us to be positionally "in Christ"? Does our walk affect our position "in Christ"? It seems if we don't obey the gospel in our walk producing fruit, the answer is yes.
Luke 13:6-9
6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 12:35
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
Luke 8:17-18
17For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Matthew 21:42-43
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Matthew 13
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
I'm not entirely convinced that only the good ground group bringing forth fruit is not the only group saved.
Hebrews 6:7-8
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
The Lord Jesus says in Matt 7 man doesn't pick thorns using that logic to suggest God doesn't either.
Philippians 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I know the common thought is Philippians 2 is referring to Sanctification, but maybe Sanctification is required for Justification. No? Still researching.
I want to be sure that I am being clear. The ONLY commandment that the unbeliever can obey is the command to BELIEVE in Jesus Christ. Once He has believed in Jesus Christ, he is eternally saved. He has eternal life which he can never lose whether or not he ever obeys any other command as a believer.
The obedience of the believer after having received Christ as Savior has absolutely NO BEARING on his eternal destination. Only on whether or not he earns eternal rewards.
Obedience after salvation is Not a requirement to Maintain your salvation.
Eternal life is not earned. It is given as a free gift through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Eternal rewards are earned.
Two completely different things.
Lee, in this dispensation the very moment a person believes in Christ for eternal salvation (obeying the gospel) he receives at least 40 grace gifts of which being placed into a legal unbreakable union with Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit is but one of those gifts.
In the dispensation of the Church, when any member of the human race believes in Christ for salvation, God does some forty things for that person at the moment of his salvation. Pay attention to this, because if you are a believer in Christ, these are forty things that belong to you. These are things, grace gifts, that you need to be aware of in order to execute God's plan for your life.
1)Access to God (Rom. 5:2; Eph. 2:18; Eph.3:12)
2)The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:13; Gal.3:26-28; Eph.4:5)
3)The Unique Availability of Divine Power (Eph. 6:10; Acts 1:8)
4)Efficacious Grace (Eph 2:8-9; 2 Cor.6:1-2)
5)Election (Eph.1:3-4; Col 3:12-17)
6)Equal Privilege and Opportunity (Gal. 3:26-28)
7)Escrow Blessings (Eph. 1:3)
8)Eternal Life (1 John 5:11-13)
9)Eternal Security (John 10:29; Rom.8:31-32; Rom. 8:1; 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 Cor. 12:21; John 10:28)
10)The filling of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18; Gal. 5:16; John 4:24)
12)Being Presented as a gift from God the Father to God the Son (John 10:29; John 17:2; John 17:6; John 17:9; John 17:11; Rev. 19:7-10; Rev.19:16)
13)Deliverance from the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire (John 3:18; Rom. 8:1)
14)Identification with God the Son in Biblical Analogy (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 15:17; Col. 1:18; Heb. 13:20; John 15:5; Eph. 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-6; Heb. 4:14; 1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 19:7; Rev. 19:14-16)
15)The Indwelling of God the Father (John 14:22-23; Eph.4:6; Phil. 2:13; 1 John 4:15; 2 John 1:9)
16)The Indwelling of God the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11;1 Cor. 3:16; 1 Cor. 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16)
17)The Indwelling of God the Son (John 14:20; John 17:22-23,26; Rom. 8:10; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 2:20; Col.1:27)
18)An Eternal Inheritance (Heb. 9:15; Eph. 1:14; 1 Peter 1:4)
19)Justification (Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:7; Rom 3:28)
20)Transference into the Kingdom of God (Eph. 2:3; Col. 1:13)
21)Deliverance from the Kingdom of Satan (Col. 1:13)
22)The New Spiritual Species (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal 6:15)
23)Positional Sanctification--adopted as Adult sons (Rom. 8:15; [Rom. 8:23-future]; Eph. 1:5)
24)Predestination (Eph. 1:5)
25)The Ten Problem-Solving Devices of the Predesigned Plan of God ( Refer to the link that I will provide at the bottom of this list.)
26)Propitiation (Rom. 3:24-25; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)
27)The Unique Predesigned Plan of God for the Church-age (Gal. 5:16; Eph 3:18. Refer to link for greater detail)
28)Reconciliation (2 Cor.5:19; Rom. 5:10)
29)Redemption (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14)
30)Regeneration (John 3:5-16; Titus 3:5)
31)The guarantee of a Resurrection Body (John 11:25; 1 Cor. 15:43; Phil. 3:20-21)
32)The Imputed Righteousness of God (Rom. 3:22; 2 Cor. 5:21)
33)The Royal Ambassadorship (2 Cor. 5:20; Phil. 3:20)
34)Entrance into the Royal Family of God (Rev. 1:6; Acts 1:5; Rom. 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 6:19-20)
35)The Royal Priesthood (1 Peter 2:5; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 5:10)
36)The Removal of all Scar Tissue from the Soul (Isa. 43:25,44:22)
37)The Sealing Ministry of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14)
38)Deliverance from the Power and Influence of the Old Sin Nature (Rom. 2:29; Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:11; Eph. 4:22; 1 John 1:9; John 8:34; John 8:36)
39)The Distribution of Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor.12:7-11; Eph. 4:11)
40)The Unlimited Atonement (2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:6;4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2; Rom. 5:6)
(This list is from the booklet 'The Grace Gifts Given at Salvation' by Robert R. McLaughlin)
Thanks Mike. When I get a chance, I'll have to follow up on this and look this over.
I'm pretty well aware of the Justification (past tense), Sanctification (present tense), glorification (future tense) model. Justification separating from the penalty of sin. Sanctification separation from the power of sin. Glorification from the presence of sin.
Where I'm at now is seeing if Sanctification (separation) (Romans 6,7) is not a requirement for Justification(Romans 4,5). I know that the majority would scream no and that adding "works" is taking away the work on the cross. Maybe though it is a requirement not a "work" though the thinking is. Something I just need to dig into I guess.
It seems that God plants the seed, and gives us some time (sanctification) to see if there is going to be desirable fruit to harvest (justification). I know it's outside of the thinking of many, but Thorns and Briers is rejected the Scriptures say. So I have a little bit of study here. Thanks for the notes.
Thanks Mike. When I get a chance, I'll have to follow up on this and look this over.
I'm pretty well aware of the Justification (past tense), Sanctification (present tense), glorification (future tense) model. Justification separating from the penalty of sin. Sanctification separation from the power of sin. Glorification from the presence of sin.
Where I'm at now is seeing if Sanctification (separation) (Romans 6,7) is not a requirement for Justification(Romans 4,5). I know that the majority would scream no and that adding "works" is taking away the work on the cross. Maybe though it is a requirement not a "work" though the thinking is. Something I just need to dig into I guess.
It seems that God plants the seed, and gives us some time (sanctification) to see if there is going to be desirable fruit to harvest (justification). I know it's outside of the thinking of many, but Thorns and Briers is rejected the Scriptures say. So I have a little bit of study here. Thanks for the notes.
Lee, there are three phases to Sanctification.
Positional Sanctification which is automatic at the moment of faith in Jesus Christ. Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 6:11; Heb 10:10,14
Experiential Sanctification which requires continued spiritual growth of the believer after salvation. Eph 5; 2 Cor 7:1; 2 Tim 2:19-22
Ultimate Sanctification which is future and pertains to the resurrection of the body. Phil 3:21; 1 John 3:2; Rom 8:29; 1 Cor 15:35-54. The word sanctification itself is not used, but the principle applies.
Both Positional Sanctification and Phase 1 justification are two of the 40 grace gifts at the moment of salvation.
Experiential Sanctification and Phase 2 justification both have to do with spiritual growth after salvation.
A person is justified - made righteous before God in terms of his eternal salvation at the moment he believes in Christ. The believer is justified before both God and man by his spiritual production - his fruit, after salvation.
If you speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love.
You have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
Amen. Agape love is what it's all about.
1 Corinthians 13 (KJV)
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
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Scary results it looks like for those that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It says those that don't obey the gospel shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. Wow sure sounds like Gehenna.
Hold the phone then we agree that believing/trusting/obeying are all virtually equivalent and that we can't really separate the terms.
