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Help a girl out... I'm a Gentile, like most of us here I imagine.. What do you mean by Torah, exactly? Just so I understand what it is you believe Jesus did and did not do away with?
either the Law still exist and condems people for breaking it and a savior is needed to pay the penalty OR it doesn;t exist and we don't need a Savior ....!
without LAW there is no knowledge of SIN
OK no LAW no definition of sin ,right?That means the LAW cannot condemn anyone ,which means there is no curse which takes away the need for a savior and we're all still dead in our SINS
OH NO how can YHWH have a judgement day and throw the sinners into a lake of fire if there is no LAW to break?
Why tell them/us they even need a Savior and are under a curse if there is no LAW
IF this is true, then that means the sacrificial system has been done away with.It has never been done away with ,Yahushua became our HIGH PRIEST
GOOD THING WE"RE UNDER GRACE
If this is all the truth or else I wouldn't have posted it, then exactly what sort of rules and LAWS will this coming HIGH PRIEST expect of us ? Would it perhaps be HIS FATHERS rules ,the rules we're already expected to know and live under ,or will the LION of JUDAH hold special counsel with all his stiffnecked church leaders that can't even get along with each other ,oops I bet he'll try and show up on a SUNNY *day service and get all the special needs out of the way....grow up people , be about your Fathers Business ...not your own
Help a girl out... I'm a Gentile, like most of us here I imagine.. What do you mean by Torah, exactly? Just so I understand what it is you believe Jesus did and did not do away with?
Thanks Richard
Torah is the teaching ,instructions, the 5 Books of Moses ,1st 5 books of the bible.
he never did away with anything ,he and all the prophets were pointing back to these teachings and instructions , the people throughout scripture refused to follow and received curses instead of the many blessings they could have gotten.
The majority of believers ,I'll call New Covenant believers , feel these are a burden and are a jewish thing to be followed. I wonder if they looked at the NT writers ,who were they,what did they follow, there was no NT ,these writers were all Jewish ,Hebrew, but one and that was Luke ,right ?
Help a girl out... I'm a Gentile, like most of us here I imagine..
quick question:
if your a gentile, and I assume you believe in the second coming ....where in scripture do the gentiles have entry into the New Jerusalem ? I guess just trying to see if I'd really like to say I'm a gentile instead a part of Israel and under the covenant and promises given to Abraham ..oh and keeping the commands will go a long way too ,shoot I forgot so many call that works.... well I'll try and work at it anyway.
I want to be a part of Israel ,doesn't matter the tribe or title, I want to be in that exodus .
Torah is the teaching ,instructions, the 5 Books of Moses ,1st 5 books of the bible.
he never did away with anything ,he and all the prophets were pointing back to these teachings and instructions , the people throughout scripture refused to follow and received curses instead of the many blessings they could have gotten.
The majority of believers ,I'll call New Covenant believers , feel these are a burden and are a jewish thing to be followed. I wonder if they looked at the NT writers ,who were they,what did they follow, there was no NT ,these writers were all Jewish ,Hebrew, but one and that was Luke ,right ?
hope that answered your question Steph
The Lord Messiah Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law (which was a curse to mankind because they couldn't keep it) and established a new one - Christ's Law. Much of the Moral Law is expanded in Christ's Law (Matt 5,6,7). We aren't saved by "Keeping them" as if we are doing that we have to "Keep" them all with zero transgression. We are to Obey living them out in a faithful walk in faith to God in Messiah and his works.
The difference of "Keeping the Law" and "Obedience of Faith" is the first is establishing one's owns righteousness as opposed to the second which is submitting to the Righteousness of Messiah living out our faith in him in hope and obedience producing Spirit-led Works/fruit.
The Ceremonial Law is currently not in operation. So celebrating Holy Feast Days, Sabbath Days, performing circumcision etc in an attempt to "Justifying" oneself is in essence undoing what Christ came to accomplish. The Book of Hebrews is an excellent book for the Messianic Christians to study.
It's all about faith. Faith demonstrates itself in trusting God in faithful obedience.
Romans 9
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
We want imputed Righteousness which is by Faith. We want to be clothed with Christ not our own filthy rags righteousness. Faith works out in obedience (Hebrews 11)
Last edited by Mikelee81; 02-09-2012 at 10:46 AM..
quick question:
if your a gentile, and I assume you believe in the second coming ....where in scripture do the gentiles have entry into the New Jerusalem ? I guess just trying to see if I'd really like to say I'm a gentile instead a part of Israel and under the covenant and promises given to Abraham ..oh and keeping the commands will go a long way too ,shoot I forgot so many call that works.... well I'll try and work at it anyway.
I want to be a part of Israel ,doesn't matter the tribe or title, I want to be in that exodus .
The objective of my question to Richard to glean an insight into exactly what he perceives as "Torah" that still remains in force for Christians. Perhaps you would have preferred it if I said I'm not a Jew according to the flesh? I think your question is hijacking the intention of mine.
Torah is the teaching ,instructions, the 5 Books of Moses ,1st 5 books of the bible.
he never did away with anything ,he and all the prophets were pointing back to these teachings and instructions , the people throughout scripture refused to follow and received curses instead of the many blessings they could have gotten.
The majority of believers ,I'll call New Covenant believers , feel these are a burden and are a jewish thing to be followed. I wonder if they looked at the NT writers ,who were they,what did they follow, there was no NT ,these writers were all Jewish ,Hebrew, but one and that was Luke ,right ?
hope that answered your question Steph
Skyking, thanks for your insight... could you tell me what you think of this verse? I've been looking at it lately:
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Galatians 3:19
In interpreting this verse, I'm interested in your take on the following...
- What law is it referring to?
- What transgressions caused it to be added?
- Who are the "offspring to whom the promise had been made"?
- Does the word "until" mean that the law referred to here would at some point become obsolete?
- When was this law put in place?
I really appreciate your thoughts on this. Thanks so much!!
Hi Torpedos, what you have written here is precisely why it is absolutely imperative to have an accurate understanding of what "law" means in the NT. It is a word not used arbitrarily and it does not always refer to the 613 rules of the Mosaic Law. Those 613 are not the law that Christians are required to obey. But if we don't understand the important distinctions that Paul makes about law, we risk tossing out the baby with the bathwater.... a mistake with huge consequences to our understanding of the necessity of obedience.
Blessings
Steph
I just dont know which ones are to be kept, How are those choices made regarding the ones we keep and the ones we dont? I dont see a clear distinction in the NT. So it is hard for people to see it. I know there are many scriptures that speak about the law, so when i see that i jump to the conclusion that it must speak of the mosaic law, every single one of them. but i do think God would not place 613 laws in addition to what Christ did. It is just difficult to see.
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What do you mean by Torah, exactly? Just so I understand what it is you believe Jesus did and did not do away with?
That means the LAW cannot condemn anyone ,which means there is no curse which takes away the need for a savior and we're all still dead in our SINS 
