Jesus and wine. (women, believe, scripture, prayer)
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Though the dangers of excessive alcohol abuse are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, it also encourages the drinking of wine to make one merry; strong drink is frowned upon, if done excessivley - so perhaps we have a difference between "wine" and "[strong] liquor" here. The Book of Proverbs contains many comments on it.
Jesus, having come from a Jewish background, would have been following traditional Jewish customs concerning alcohol. AS the poster above me pointed out - would Jesus have done something he didn't personally feel was acceptable spiritually?
It seems to me that much of the hullaballoo is from conservatives who use the phrase "your body is the temple" to prohibit anything they deem too pleasurable, or wordly. Too much Paul, not enough Jesus? Paul seemed to enjoy that "thorn" in his side (whatever it was), and his bachelor status - and many people have been paying his price ever since heh heh.
Though the dangers of excessive alcohol abuse are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, it also encourages the drinking of wine to make one merry; strong drink is frowned upon, if done excessivley - so perhaps we have a difference between "wine" and "[strong] liquor" here. The Book of Proverbs contains many comments on it.
Jesus, having come from a Jewish background, would have been following traditional Jewish customs concerning alcohol. AS the poster above me pointed out - would Jesus have done something he didn't personally feel was acceptable spiritually?
It seems to me that much of the hullaballoo is from conservatives who use the phrase "your body is the temple" to prohibit anything they deem too pleasurable, or wordly. Too much Paul, not enough Jesus? Paul seemed to enjoy that "thorn" in his side (whatever it was), and his bachelor status - and many people have been paying his price ever since heh heh.
Paul also favored celibacy which is conveniently ignored by fundamentalists when they attack the celibacy of Catholic priests.
Paul also favored celibacy which is conveniently ignored by fundamentalists when they attack the celibacy of Catholic priests.
Yes, that's what my "bachelor status" reference was alluding to.
He wished that others could be like him, but permitted those who would succumb to the lures of the flesh to marry. This, of course, was being written in an atmosphere that was anticipating an imminent return of Jesus to usher in the Kingdom of God; the reasoning was that it was pointless to marry and beget children, when the end-times were coming soon. His hopes for an imminent return had to modifed, though - and this resignation becomes progressively clearer in his writings as he wrestles with the fact that Jesus did not return during "that current generation".
Ever since the Reformation there has been a war of dogma between protestants and catholics. Thomas Hobbes' masterwork Leviathan contains blatant anti-Catholic sentiments in his section entitled The Kingdom of Darkness (hint: he wasn't referring to Satan heh heh!). Even with the rise of German Biblical Scholarship, there is a definate anti-Catholic bias present, and an aversion to anything reminiscent of ritual or priestly functions. Many German Protestant Scholars felt that the true essence of religion was to be found in the teachings of the Prophets, and that the Priests perverted this teaching. Wellhausen went so far as to call Judaism (because of this) "a withered dead branch" essentially awaiting Jesus to usher in a new, non-priestly return to "pure" religion.
Personally, the idea of sola scriptura may be misguided. The Catholic Church knew the dangers of such an idea and were prescient concerning the damage later scholarship would do to the Divine status of the Bible, all made possible by the Reformation's insistence that all matters of theology should ultimately derive from scripture alone (sola scriptura). This has the unfortunate result that any further communications from God (as the Catholics hold still occur via the Pope, the Saints and miracles) are rejected by Protestants - which effectively ends any further theological progress, in a way (at least, as far as revelation goes).
Thus - many are stuck trying to determine whether it is okay to drink alcohol by using scriptural references alone. I dunno - I never bought the whole line my teachers taught me that "the age of inspiration, revelation and miracles is over" - why is it over? Simply because the canon of God's written revelation is "finished" according to a few councils, etc?
Paul also favored celibacy which is conveniently ignored by fundamentalists when they attack the celibacy of Catholic priests.
There is a difference between wanting (free will) or being forced by law.
Wine is allowed but God didn't command to drink wine.
So if Catholic priests, or anyone, prefer celibacy; great. Do it!
But making it a church rule...? In that case we need a verse that shows us it's a law.
On of the things Jesus has done is removing many laws.
Circumcision of the flesh was not forbidden but it was forbidden to force other to have it. Same for the many laws about food. People were allowed to keep following the old laws. But were not allowed to force other to do so. Remember the sheet with unclean food descending from Heaven.....?
To summarize; celibacy certainly isn't forbidden. But rules that enforce celibacy are. (unless I've overlooked some key verse on that matter)
Personally, the idea of sola scriptura may be misguided. The Catholic Church knew the dangers of such an idea and were prescient concerning the damage later scholarship would do to the Divine status of the Bible,
Promoting sola scriptura is showing severe lack of scholarship.
Sure, the whole idea of the Bible is to follow what's written and don't add man made doctrine.
The problem is it's impossible to follow the Bible without understanding the Bible. Sola Scriptura is just one part of the puzzle. The other part is that we must place the Bible in the context of a 2000 year old civilization.
If we we fail to do that scholarship will fail. To understand that culture we need to look outside the Bible. Then you will find things that might suprise you in a big way. You might even lean what the Lake of Fire really is and was.
So for full understanding we need also to look outside of the Bible.
Finding the correct balance is very tricky!
Sola Scriptura is a principle adopted by the fathers of the Reformation like Martin Luther. Rome rejects sola scriptura, because they think that they themselves have the authority to decide what is truth and what is not. Therefore, they rule scripture, rather than being ruled by God's word.
This is quite evident and can be proven by their doctrines, like denial of salvation by faith alone, immaculate conception of Mary, doctrine of purgatory, the sales of indulgences, prayers for the dead, assumption of Mary, perpetual virginity of Mary and others. Rome fought Luther with all that they could until he died, in part because he denied the power and authority of the Papacy. I believe they consider him still excommunicated and therefore in hell, because they claim that the Pope has the Keys to the Kingdom of God, another false doctrine.
As far as the wine issue, the OP is right on the money. Grape Juice was invented by Welch in 1869. Otherwise, grape juice always used to turn into wine. The opposition to wine in church for communion, my guess, might have come from the temperance movement. Also, some of the sects that began after the Reformation were so anti-Catholic, that they threw out anything that had to do with the Roman Catholic church. This might have also been a reason for the rejection of wine for communion.
Promoting sola scriptura is showing severe lack of scholarship.
Sure, the whole idea of the Bible is to follow what's written and don't add man made doctrine.
The problem is it's impossible to follow the Bible without understanding the Bible. Sola Scriptura is just one part of the puzzle. The other part is that we must place the Bible in the context of a 2000 year old civilization.
If we we fail to do that scholarship will fail. To understand that culture we need to look outside the Bible. Then you will find things that might suprise you in a big way. You might even lean what the Lake of Fire really is and was.
So for full understanding we need also to look outside of the Bible.
Finding the correct balance is very tricky!
You are correct, WhiteWings . . . but the Sola Scriptura crowd consider any use of information or knowledge outside of the scriptural text Eisegesis (personal opinion). The concept of using the accumulated knowledge of 2000+years to more intelligently understand the scriptures and any inspirations within them is unknown to them. It is an insular view that is predicated on the idea that worldly knowledge (wisdom of man) is to be avoided and the ancient ignorance is to be preserved as a sign of Faith. It is supremely frustrating to say the least.
What Christians of all stripes need to keep in the foremost place of their minds is, We are not saved by the law. Not the old testament laws or any man made laws formulated by the modern day Pharasees. Jesus taught that the entire Law was fullfilled in Himself. It's faith alone in Christ alone that makes us Christians and right with God. Not if you take a drink or not. Not if you eat too much and are 50 pounds overweight. In fact nothing we do gains us any merit with God. Jesus commands us to Love the Lord with all of our hearts, minds, souls and strength. Make that your goal and all these other things will just fade away. Christians have this bad habit of pointing out their finger at some particular sin that in some way offends them more than other sins. Most likely the sins that their own lives are full of are the ones they don't mind so much. Jesus calls those people hippocrites. He asks them why they are trying to take the small sliver out of others eyes when the whole log is in their own. True Christians will not be offended by others but will pray for them and love them just as Jesus loves us.
There is a difference between wanting (free will) or being forced by law.
Wine is allowed but God didn't command to drink wine.
So if Catholic priests, or anyone, prefer celibacy; great. Do it!
But making it a church rule...? In that case we need a verse that shows us it's a law.
On of the things Jesus has done is removing many laws.
Circumcision of the flesh was not forbidden but it was forbidden to force other to have it. Same for the many laws about food. People were allowed to keep following the old laws. But were not allowed to force other to do so. Remember the sheet with unclean food descending from Heaven.....?
To summarize; celibacy certainly isn't forbidden. But rules that enforce celibacy are. (unless I've overlooked some key verse on that matter)
The early priests in the RCC were married-----------the change to celibacy came in the 11th century.
Paul was big on celibacy in his writings so I assume this influenced church leaders to only choose candidates for priesthood that wanted celibacy. No one is forced to be celibate and marriage is allowed in many other different rites of Catholicism.
There is a difference between wanting (free will) or being forced by law.
Wine is allowed but God didn't command to drink wine.
God did require a tithe of the wine in the Old Testament. If you read up on tithing, you will find that tithers were to consume the tithe themselves, share it with the widows and orphans, and not to forget the priests. This then indicates a consumption of the tithed wine. There will also be wine in Heaven. At the Last Supper, Jesus said that He would drink it again in God's Kingdom. I try to imagine the Wedding Banquet of the Lamb of God when He offers a toast to God's glory and the Baptists all say "We don't drink wine".
Last edited by Bideshi; 02-08-2012 at 12:16 AM..
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