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Old 02-10-2012, 07:55 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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First question:

Take a 'real' Christian, a true follower of Christ who tries to be compassionate, has morals and principles.etc. And take an ethical Atheist who does not want to hurt anybody else.

Would you say both are EQUALLY abhorred by murder of another human being? Leaving aside individual differences.

I've noticed on CD this idea that most pro-lifers are vilified as pro-war, pro-DP people who 'love death' and think the life of a foetus is worth more than the life of an Iraqi.

On the other hand, liberals are accused of putting more value on the life of a criminal than an innocent unborn baby.

Both, I think, are pretty extreme characterisations of the other's point of view.

Is that really the case in America? That most pro-lifers fit the mould? Or has the Republican party warped people's minds, so you have a horde who thinks this is the 'right way'. Vote Republican because it's the right thing to do, but we won't actually DO anything to change abortion laws. Sure it's okay to have an abortion, just keep it quiet, we don't want it to ruin our political image or upset the Evangelical voters. Conversely, the Democrats are as if not more 'hawks' than the Republicans.

Anyway, this isn't a political discussion. I believe if anything being pro abortion FEELS closer to being pro-DP. The right of the mother to her body, and the right of the victims to have 'closure.' Both of which I disagree with.

Anyway, that's not the inconsistency I'm trying to raise...

Well maybe not inconsistent per se, but strange...

If both ethical Atheist and Christian are against murder, why does the Christian tend to be anti abortion?

Is it really about the sanctity of life?

Does it show that Atheists truly ARE moral relativists...I think the argument that says 'I agree with it because it's the law' is kind of backward reasoning.

There is no moral law binding Atheists to be opposed to abortion. It's simply a matter of science. But then the Bible itself isn't clear on abortion, yet it's become a hot button topic. Ironically, Jesus said more about giving the poor welfare than abortion.

Is it more to do with God's right to create, rather than a right to life? Would you say it's more tied to the traditional opposition to contraception and non pro-creative sex? The spiritual element of whether the embryo has a soul.

About putting the Order of things first before our Rights, which is seen as Humanistic thinking?

Because historically, it didn't seem the Church was all that opposed to abortion. Nothing in the Bible really talks about when the embryo becomes a human, so I wonder how it became a religious issue? Is it innately wrong, or did it become political? Why are non-religious pro-lifers basically ignored?

If you believe those innocent babies are going to Heaven, why be anti-abortion?

I just think the way abortion and religion have been mixed up is peculiar and often inconsistent. I know I'm GENERALIZING a lot: plenty of Christians who support abortion (probably moreso in the US as a percentage) and some non-religious folk who are anti-abortion. But if it's a simple matter of KILLING, then it seems the reasons people do or do not support abortion really does not have anything to do with the matter itself.

While it is indisputably the killing of a life form, most pro-choicers assert it's a question of whether that 'thing' is human yet. Few have been so bold as to draw a definite line, but most agree after birth it's definitely non-negotiable. It's also legally murder.

For pro-choicers - it's mainly about a woman's right - a civil rights issue.

For pro-lifers it's mostly a moral issue because they believe that the fetus IS a human life and it's murder.

THIS is why arguments between the two go in circles. The first group's main point of attack is of curtailing women's rights. The other group sees protecting innocent life as more important.

Many from both camps do recognise a difference between a 1 month old zygote and an 8 month old baby. Some do not.

As you know I'm generally anti-abortion for ethical reasons - but I'm not here to argue or push my views. I disagree on points with a lot of pro-lifers too, for that matter.

Anyway, please do not make this another abortion debate...hopefully a discussion on the various beliefs and attitudes that inform your stand on the abortion issue.

Last edited by Trimac20; 02-10-2012 at 08:21 PM..
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:16 PM
 
Location: FL
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I generaly find that most people have certain contradictions in their "logic". I think we are all guilty of that sometimes.

I also have a hard time understanding how people who are on the extreme right or extreme left consolidate their beliefs on certain things.

I wouldn't limit this to just Christians though.
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:59 PM
 
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You have a lot of thoughts and questions in there that I can't answer. This is something I am passion about but am not obsessed with it. I did a Bible study on Abortion and it was hard. I have no first hand experience, but I do not judge and pass condemnation. It was also hard because this is something that I shouldn't sugar coat and feel the need to be "accepted" by everyone (I have a tendency to want to be accepted by everyone).

I am more convicted than ever that abortion is murder. Plain and simple: abortion is evil. God abhors sin. Only He will judge and know the heart of a person, but I believe it is a tool that we use to murder God's children and use it for our own will most of the time. Jesus never mention abortions, but he said "do not hinder the little children" and he loved them. He is God too. I have been meditating on Psalm 139, and the Holy Spirit has been revealing to me how precious we are to Him. We are all created in his image (Gen. 1:27), and Psalm 139 has helped me to understand myself, children, and our worth and value. I am all for women's right (or our freedom), but I will stand with God on this issue. Proverbs 24:11-12 says "Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "behold we did not know this," does not he (God) who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he (God) who keeps watch over your soul know it, and will he not repay man according to his work?" This verse is vague, but I think this verse can be apply to abortion as well. Your (not you but in general) ignorance does not excuse you from judgment.

Also, I think it's interesting that some people likes to corner Christians (or pro-lifers) by saying "they don't care the women and that's why they want to take their rights away." Not exactly. Some don't, some do. What I find interesting is that friends who tell their friend(s) to get an abortion is never there after they made that choice. So much for caring, huh? I know that I care enough where I don't ignore them after they've had an abortion. No judging or condemnation, only compassion and truth.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:07 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,540,825 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianRice View Post
You have a lot of thoughts and questions in there that I can't answer. This is something I am passion about but am not obsessed with it. I did a Bible study on Abortion and it was hard. I have no first hand experience, but I do not judge and pass condemnation. It was also hard because this is something that I shouldn't sugar coat and feel the need to be "accepted" by everyone (I have a tendency to want to be accepted by everyone).

I am more convicted than ever that abortion is murder. Plain and simple: abortion is evil. God abhors sin. Only He will judge and know the heart of a person, but I believe it is a tool that we use to murder God's children and use it for our own will most of the time. Jesus never mention abortions, but he said "do not hinder the little children" and he loved them. He is God too. I have been meditating on Psalm 139, and the Holy Spirit has been revealing to me how precious we are to Him. We are all created in his image (Gen. 1:27), and Psalm 139 has helped me to understand myself, children, and our worth and value. I am all for women's right (or our freedom), but I will stand with God on this issue. Proverbs 24:11-12 says "Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "behold we did not know this," does not he (God) who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he (God) who keeps watch over your soul know it, and will he not repay man according to his work?" This verse is vague, but I think this verse can be apply to abortion as well. Your (not you but in general) ignorance does not excuse you from judgment.

Also, I think it's interesting that some people likes to corner Christians (or pro-lifers) by saying "they don't care the women and that's why they want to take their rights away." Not exactly. Some don't, some do. What I find interesting is that friends who tell their friend(s) to get an abortion is never there after they made that choice. So much for caring, huh? I know that I care enough where I don't ignore them after they've had an abortion. No judging or condemnation, only compassion and truth.
Yeah a lot of pro-choicers still can't accept your point of view. It's starting to become PC to be pro-abortion. Being anti-abortion is the same as being anti-gay rights, racist.etc and whatnot. Guilt by association will not work with anyone with any intelligence, who can see bull-crap and calls a spade a spade.

What I see is Rights become pre-eminent over humanity. An extremist form of 'humaneness' has become warped so that the right for a women not to be inconvenienced is greater than the right to life. It's moral relativism at work here. While I don't see say the termination of pregnancy in the first trimester as complete murder myself, it's still the PRINCIPLE of the matter. But I'll stop before I start on the same old tack. It's just my observation that a lot of people who are pro-choice are truly moral relativists at heart. There is nothing stopping some of them from supporting infanticide, to be blunt about it. The whole partial birth abortion thing shows that. I am pretty convinced someone like Rosie O'Donnell would huff and puff about killing newborns if she could get away for it, because it's a woman's rights and that's all that matters dammit!
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:17 PM
 
Location: FL
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I know a lot of people don't want to see this. But, pro-choice is not the same thing as pro-abortion.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:40 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,540,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
I know a lot of people don't want to see this. But, pro-choice is not the same thing as pro-abortion.
Supporting the choice to kill is allowing the killing to happen, so the distinction means nothing to me.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
I know a lot of people don't want to see this. But, pro-choice is not the same thing as pro-abortion.
Thank you. I welcome your statement. No one has any business giving a small clump of cells in a woman's fallopian tube preeminence over her civil rights as a human being with many issues and reasons for deciding whether or not to accept a pregnancy as the correct option. I'm particularly tired of men in high office in D.C. and in the Catholic church making it their business. This is 2012 for God's sake! People need to get real.

Heartsong, a 48 year old mother of four who conceivably could get pregnant, but most likely will not. There is no way I'd consider allowing a pregnancy to continue at my age if it were to happen (which it will not unless I am raped).
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:55 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,540,825 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Thank you. I welcome your statement. No one has any business giving a small clump of cells in a woman's fallopian tube preeminence over her civil rights as a human being with many issues and reasons for deciding whether or not to accept a pregnancy as the correct option. I'm particularly tired of men in high office in D.C. and in the Catholic church making it their business. This is 2012 for God's sake! People need to get real.

Heartsong, a 48 year old mother of four who conceivably could get pregnant, but most likely will not. There is no way I'd consider allowing a pregnancy to continue at my age if it were to happen (which it will not unless I am raped).
Sorry heartsong but 'a clump of cells' gives the impression of a micro-scopic zygote. Now in those cases I'm not throwing my hands up. But the aborted fetuses I saw definitely looked like miniature humans to me, with arms, legs, a heart, eyes.etc. I don't know but it's emotionally disturbing.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:33 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 2,181,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Supporting the choice to kill is allowing the killing to happen, so the distinction means nothing to me.

That's fine. It does mean something to me.

I also have to wonder why so many people who are "pro-life", who encourage people to have their babies at all costs, are also anti-welfare.
That's just one of those contradictory logic things that I have to question.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:51 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,540,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
That's fine. It does mean something to me.

I also have to wonder why so many people who are "pro-life", who encourage people to have their babies at all costs, are also anti-welfare.
That's just one of those contradictory logic things that I have to question.
Me too, they are not consistent. Maybe they believe both things because they think that's what conservatives are supposed to believe.
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