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Old 02-24-2012, 04:35 AM
 
9,616 posts, read 1,159,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmforte View Post
This is not true. Point out in Scripture where it says that. Besides, how could the Bible be our sole authority and set the standard for the Church in the first century when there was no Bible yet?
I already have. You choose not to accept it. The first century not only had the apostles to preach the word, they also had the letters that were written and circulated by them among the churches. The apostle's doctrine was the sole authority, and it still is. Anything added after the last apostle died is not the word of God. It is the traditions of men.

Cmforte, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am to mine. We need to respect that in one another and move on. I don't plan on changing the way I think, and I don't expect you to either. Can we just agree to disagree?

Katie

 
Old 02-24-2012, 05:15 AM
 
9,616 posts, read 1,159,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I did not "define scripture." I explained how the phrase "the gates of hell" would have been interpreted as meaning by a first century Jew. This is something you're refusing to consider, because it runs counter to your own interpretation. In other words, you're deciding what you think Jesus meant and completely ignoring the fact that to Peter (the person Jesus was talking to), the phrase, "the gates of hell" would have meant something quite different from what you're saying it means to you. And because you are unwilling to look at any sources outside of the Bible to learn about the background of Christ's initial converts, you're going to continue to impose your own interpretation on the phrase.

No, it's just contrary to your understanding of God's word.

That's right. We only die once and after that, we will be judged? Does "after that" mean "immediately upon death" or at "the final judgment"? Is Jesus going to cast the unbelieving into hellfire the instant they die or when He returns again? Or is He going to do so twice? You have one interpretation; I have another.

If everything's easy to understand, it makes you wonder why there are well over 30,000 Christian denominations today, all teaching how easy it is to understand.
Katz,

Saved has pointed out Hebrews 9:27. What is your response to that scripture?

Katie
 
Old 02-24-2012, 07:04 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,072,667 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
I already have. You choose not to accept it. The first century not only had the apostles to preach the word, they also had the letters that were written and circulated by them among the churches. The apostle's doctrine was the sole authority, and it still is. Anything added after the last apostle died is not the word of God. It is the traditions of men.

Cmforte, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am to mine. We need to respect that in one another and move on. I don't plan on changing the way I think, and I don't expect you to either. Can we just agree to disagree?

Katie
I am at a loss as why a few letters sent by Paul have been made into something he never said they were.

If Paul was here today he would rebuke most of us for what we have done with them.

It beggars belief that many believe you can contain the Light of God solely to a book.Yes Paul did quote the scriptures, but there are many things he said you cannot find in what was considered scripture back then. So that leaves the question where did Paul discover Light ?.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 07:17 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,295 posts, read 9,656,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
Katie: What might be worth mentioning if the false teachings that Mary was born sinless, never sinned, never had sex, remained a virgin and never died but was taken up to heaven. There should be no doubt that Mary was a normal sinful human being, had sex with Joseph, had other children, and died, like all sinners, and that praying to Mary is idolatry.

We know that Mary was a sinner, because she had doubt about the words that God had given to Gabriel. That's evidence of imperfect faith and therefore sin.
Lk 1:34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
We know that she had sex and other children because of this:
Mt 12:47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.
Mk 6:3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

And we know that prayer to Mary is wrong because Jesus directed the Christian to pray to God the Father. " ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name
Jn 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’’"
Amen....

Quote:
Originally Posted by saved33 View Post
I don't think so.

I believe this is another prime example of what happens when one goes outside of scripture to define scripture. The very reason for this thread.

Jesus death and resurrection as the One True God is the reason the gates of hell will not prevail against His church (his true believers). Those people will not suffer the second death (eternal death and separation from God). Thus, the gates of hell will not prevail...

God does not change, nor His word, and it means the same today as it did when the scriptures were written.
"The Gates of Hell shall not prevail"... As some Greek scholars hold it means death. And therefore... these scholars holding to the idiom would mean that the church will never die. By which I totally agree, amen, as we can see it has not !!

Christ proclaimed to the apostle and for all believers.... that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, His people. He was comforting us by telling us that His victory over sin and death (Oh, death where is your sting) would not only be in the afterlife but this life as well..... amen !!

We can believe and say in short, the Church shall never depart from the Truth that is the Rock upon which the Church is founded and fall into heresy; nor shall the Church, the believers ever be rooted out by persecutors such as the Romans, the Muslims, Communists, all have tried but failed. Nor shall the Church, the believers ever be destroyed by the false works and conversations of the unfaithful, which we see everywhere these days in secular thoughts.

In my reading and understanding that truly a good way looking at this is that Jesus’ proclamation tells us to look for the Lord in the areas of our greatest weakness and failure, because that is where He is going to be.
There He declares that He is the Christ, and the darkness, the "Gates of Hell" cannot prevail against Him...... amen

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"God does not change, nor His word, and it means the same today as it did when the scriptures were written"
Once a person crosses the bridge that the Bible isn't enough or that there most be something else out there that fills in the supposed gaps does nothing but opens the door for Satan to fill it with half truths and lies.

The historical standard for what is considered the truth for a religios body has always limited the definition to what "scriptures" was\is the Bible.
Unfortunatly, we are facing today a conservative effort to alter the definitions to change what was historicaly considered Christian as "Christian". More than ever "the wolf in sheep's clothing \ devil masquarding as light" as the bible describes those who oppose the truth is leading people further and further away from the truth which is the Bible proclaims itself to be.

Our only recourse is to not to lose our saltiness and understand that the open wounds of those who reject the Bible per historical claims will not agree \ forcefully counter. We are in a spiritual war where the two camps can not compromise.
Yes, we're dealing with spiritual warfare not human reason.....
False doctrine, will always be around and some can teach it if they choose. Anyone the enemy can convince is magically immune from ever being taught false doctrine is already under his influence. Anyone who will fall for that, will fall for anything..... amen !!

Thanks Twin,
 
Old 02-24-2012, 07:23 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,072,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmforte View Post
This is not true. Point out in Scripture where it says that. Besides, how could the Bible be our sole authority and set the standard for the Church in the first century when there was no Bible yet?
Amen!!
 
Old 02-24-2012, 07:34 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,295 posts, read 9,656,501 times
Reputation: 17805
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
I already have. You choose not to accept it. The first century not only had the apostles to preach the word, they also had the letters that were written and circulated by them among the churches. The apostle's doctrine was the sole authority, and it still is. Anything added after the last apostle died is not the word of God. It is the traditions of men.

Cmforte, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am to mine. We need to respect that in one another and move on. I don't plan on changing the way I think, and I don't expect you to either. Can we just agree to disagree?

Katie
Amen, Katie !
 
Old 02-24-2012, 07:56 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,426,984 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmforte View Post
This is not true. Point out in Scripture where it says that. Besides, how could the Bible be our sole authority and set the standard for the Church in the first century when there was no Bible yet?
It's hard to argue that if one deliberatly refuses to see that Jesus often quotes the "scriptures" .... or that the Bereans searched the "scriptures".

Just what do you think they were reading and Jesus was refering to when "scriptures" is being talked about?
 
Old 02-24-2012, 07:58 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,275,309 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It's hard to argue that if one deliberatly refuses to see that Jesus often quotes the "scriptures" .... or that the Bereans searched the "scriptures".

Just what do you think they were reading and Jesus was refering to when "scriptures" is being talked about?

As a good Jew Jesus quoted the OT. At the time of Jesus there was no NT.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 08:29 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,072,667 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
Amen....



Yes, we're dealing with spiritual warfare not human reason.....
False doctrine, will always be around and some can teach it if they choose. Anyone the enemy can convince is magically immune from ever being taught false doctrine is already under his influence. Anyone who will fall for that, will fall for anything..... amen !!

Thanks Twin,
Moderator cut: delete
The bottom line is, there are multitudes of believers from all denominations walking with God who have not got all their doctrines correct, yet the grace of God is upon their lives, because the grace of God is not dependent on whether you beleve all the correct doctrines. I hope this sets you free of your fear of believing the wrong thing and that you see and believe that God's grace is working towards you regardless.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-24-2012 at 11:40 AM.. Reason: took out the question to cm
 
Old 02-24-2012, 09:29 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,275,309 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Moderator cut: orphaned response

The bottom line is, there are multitudes of believers from all denominations walking with God who have not got all their doctrines correct, yet the grace of God is upon their lives, because the grace of God is not dependent on whether you beleve all the correct doctrines. I hope this sets you free of your fear of believing the wrong thing and that you see and believe that God's grace is working towards you regardless.
Great post.

By definition a mere mortal cannot have a good idea of what God is all about. The Bible and everything else--------including apostolic succession and sacred traditions are guidelines to try to understand God.

The Bible Fundamentalists believe they have a grasp on God because they believe the Bible word by word. I rather be like Socrates and admit I only know I know nothing.

It is rather easy to point out problems in the Bible, but the Fundamentalists believe the problems are there for divine reasons, so that is the way it is.

The important thing is to accept that God saves ALL (even those that never knew Christ).

No need to be picky about differences in how we see God. If we are picky about that then we are back to paganism where people thought one religion was better than another.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-24-2012 at 11:41 AM..
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