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Old 02-20-2012, 03:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
whoppers posted:

"The author of the Gospel of John sees it differently. Oh well. John had a theological point to make concerning the Lamb being sacrificed on the Day of Preparation for the Passover, while Mark did not have that same point to make about Jesus being the Lamb. This is why many say that John's Gospel is much more theologically sophisticated than Mark's."

RESPONSE:

Which version is in error and hence not divinely inspired? Are we talking about history here or allegory?
Those are questions each individual will have to wrestle with. If they are worried about "harmonization" and "divinely inspired inerrancy" then they won't get far in understanding what each individual Gospel writer was trying to say, and for what reasons. If each Gospel is saying the same exact thing, why include all four of them? To confuse people? To make people doubt?

The only people who will be troubled by such things are those intent on "harmonizing" four separate accounts into one new mega-story of their own devising. Personally, I enjoy each Gospel for it's own unique take on the story of Jesus.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:51 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,903 posts, read 26,127,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Mike - try some modern sources (not from the 1600s). Our knowledge of Hebrew, Greek and the worlds in which these were spoken has grown vastly. This is the reason why the King James Version is no longer an accurate translation, for example. It's a beautiful translation, but it is severly lacking in many areas.

Your quoted commentary, in addition to being extremely outdated and innacurate, is extremely biased! Anti-semitic references, charges of blasphemy, etc... Sorry - John Gill is no longer an up-to-date authority on the subject. When you quote him - that just means you have to reach that far back for scholars who believed such an antiquated thing. Welcome to the 20th century.


What is clear here is that you disagree with the vast majority of biblical scholars, experts trained in their field. You disagree with them by quoting 500 year old commentaries, and cherrypicking definitions here and there from the internet. It doesn't really matter, though. You obviously have an obligation to preserving some idea of the "harmony" of the Gospels - a man-made construct that the Gospels never claim for themselves. Does that sound like a sound way of approaching a subject? By assuming something to be so, and then arguing vociferously against everyone who points out the folly of this?

Are you really claiming that the majority of Biblical Scholars are WRONG, and that you and John Gills are CORRECT? Really?
I already did include a modern source. The Bible Knowledge Commentary was produced by the faculty of the Dallas Theological Seminary. Truth does not change. John Gill was correct in his understanding of John 19:14. As am I.

You have completely ignored the fact that Passover refers not only to Passover day itself, but to Passover Week. This has been established with the use of Biblical passages, apart from any commentaries.

It is not my intention to waste my time on a long drawn out debate on this. It has been clearly shown that all four gospels are in complete agreement that Jesus was crucified on Passover day which was on Nisan 14. The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,701,890 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Those are questions each individual will have to wrestle with. If they are worried about "harmonization" and "divinely inspired inerrancy" then they won't get far in understanding what each individual Gospel writer was trying to say, and for what reasons. If each Gospel is saying the same exact thing, why include all four of them? To confuse people? To make people doubt?

The only people who will be troubled by such things are those intent on "harmonizing" four separate accounts into one new mega-story of their own devising. Personally, I enjoy each Gospel for it's own unique take on the story of Jesus.
RESPONSE:

Yes. It's important that one realize that he/she isn't reading actual history, but legends written long after the events they describe.

Excerpted from A Concise History of the Catholic Church, By Father Thomas Bokenkotter, SS

"Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories were told about him which, though not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him. For this reason, scholars have come to make a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith."

Last edited by ancient warrior; 02-20-2012 at 05:59 PM.. Reason: remove brackets
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:18 PM
 
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Mike or anyone. Can you explain these Scriptures. I don't know what they mean but I have been told that there were of coarse the regular Sabbath and also a special Sabbath but on a different day.. Perhaps that is why we have this debate on which day Jesus was crucified.

LEV 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month[Nisan] there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
LEV 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and you shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall you celebrate your sabbath.
LEV 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
LEV 23:40 And you shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:25 PM
 
3,483 posts, read 4,023,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I already did include a modern source. The Bible Knowledge Commentary was produced by the faculty of the Dallas Theological Seminary. Truth does not change. John Gill was correct in his understanding of John 19:14. As am I.

You have completely ignored the fact that Passover refers not only to Passover day itself, but to Passover Week. This has been established with the use of Biblical passages, apart from any commentaries.

It is not my intention to waste my time on a long drawn out debate on this. It has been clearly shown that all four gospels are in complete agreement that Jesus was crucified on Passover day which was on Nisan 14. The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year.

Yes, you quoted ONE modern commentary (a bad one, at that, judging from their minority view and gross misunderstanding of the text) - ignoring the rest.

You keep saying "it has been clearly shown" - yet you are incorrect. It has NOT been clearly shown by you.

I should have known better than to attempt a reasonable conversation with someone whose mind is already made up by others for him. I assume you didn't come up with the doctrine of Gospel Harmonization by yourself - you're just adopting it and then cramming the four separate, different, unique Gospel writers into that doctrine. Oh well. It doesn't really matter.

If you had no intention of debating - then why did you create this separate thread? To just voice your opinion of your correctness (you're already convinced that you know "the truth" - proud much?), hoping that nobody would disagree with your antiquated and conservative reading of it? But I suppose you know better than those who make their living studying this material.

Oh well - the evidence is there for people to make up their own mind, without the help of the racist and hateful John Gills or the Dallas Seminar's horrible apologetics in this instance.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:27 PM
 
3,483 posts, read 4,023,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Yes. It's important that one realize that he/she isn't reading actual history, but legends written long after the events they describe.

Excerpted from A Concise History of the Catholic Church, By Father Thomas Bokenkotter, SS

"Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories were told about him which, though not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him. For this reason, scholars have come to make a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith."
Yes, indeed - I agree with you 100%! I imagine that such a concept might blow Mike's mind, if he can't even grasp that there's a reason that the Gospel of John is not included in the ranks of the Synoptic Gospels.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:51 PM
 
3,483 posts, read 4,023,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
Mike or anyone. Can you explain these Scriptures. I don't know what they mean but I have been told that there were of coarse the regular Sabbath and also a special Sabbath but on a different day.. Perhaps that is why we have this debate on which day Jesus was crucified.

LEV 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month[Nisan] there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
LEV 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and you shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall you celebrate your sabbath.
LEV 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
LEV 23:40 And you shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Gary, these verses deal with festivals - this section in Leviticus is concerned with holy holidays (The New Year, etc.). The Festival of Passover is dealt with beginning in Leviticus 23:4-8:
These are the appointed-times of YHWH, proclamations of holiness, which you are to proclaim at their appointed-times:

on the first New-Moon, on the fourteenth after the New-Moon,
between the setting times
(is) Passover to YHWH.

On the fifteenth day after this New-Moon
(is) the pilgrimage-festival of matzot to YHWH:
for seven days, matzot you are to eat!

On the first day
a proclamation of holiness shall there be for you.
any-kind of servile work you are not to do.
Your are to bring-near a fire-offering to YHWH, for seven days,
on the seventh day (is) a proclamation of holiness,
any-kind of servile work you are not to do.
(Leviticus 23:4-8, SB)
These verses would be the ones appropriate to your discussion. To be honest, there is no real debate. Fundamentalists insist that the Gospels should harmonize, and coupled with their bad grasp of Jewish Holidays (part of the heritage of rejecting Jewish customs in Christianity) and their days - result in a stubborn attempt to "explain away" John's very unique and personal view of Jesus as the Lamb. Once the details in the Exodus account of Passover is taken into account, it becomes clear that in John's Gospel - Jesus HAD to die on the Day of Preparation for Passover. Not the week of Passover, but the Day of Passover. Whether this conincided with the normal, weekly Day of Preparation for the Sabbath shouldn't matter - it's probably these two latter points that create confusion in the minds of those unfamiliar with Jewish practice.

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Old 02-20-2012, 07:10 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,914,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

John 1:29 "The next day he saw Jesus coming towards him and declared, ‘Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (NRSV)
~ Yes, thank you.

'The Lamb 0f God Who
takes away the sins of the world. - John 1:29

Is 'our passover'. - 1Cor.5:7

Not "The Passover 0f The Jews". - John 11:55
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:10 PM
 
2,541 posts, read 2,525,117 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Gary, these verses deal with festivals - this section in Leviticus is concerned with holy holidays (The New Year, etc.). The Festival of Passover is dealt with beginning in Leviticus 23:4-8:
These are the appointed-times of YHWH, proclamations of holiness, which you are to proclaim at their appointed-times:

on the first New-Moon, on the fourteenth after the New-Moon,
between the setting times
(is) Passover to YHWH.

On the fifteenth day after this New-Moon
(is) the pilgrimage-festival of matzot to YHWH:
for seven days, matzot you are to eat!

On the first day
a proclamation of holiness shall there be for you.
any-kind of servile work you are not to do.
Your are to bring-near a fire-offering to YHWH, for seven days,
on the seventh day (is) a proclamation of holiness,
any-kind of servile work you are not to do.
(Leviticus 23:4-8, SB)
These verses would be the ones appropriate to your discussion. To be honest, there is no real debate. Fundamentalists insist that the Gospels should harmonize, and coupled with their bad grasp of Jewish Holidays (part of the heritage of rejecting Jewish customs in Christianity) and their days - result in a stubborn attempt to "explain away" John's very unique and personal view of Jesus as the Lamb. Once the details in the Exodus account of Passover is taken into account, it becomes clear that in John's Gospel - Jesus HAD to die on the Day of Preparation for Passover. Not the week of Passover, but the Day of Passover. Whether this conincided with the normal, weekly Day of Preparation for the Sabbath shouldn't matter - it's probably these two latter points that create confusion in the minds of those unfamiliar with Jewish practice.
Thanks for your answering me. Now I need to study up on these things before I can conclude anything.
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:12 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,903 posts, read 26,127,501 times
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I want to draw the readers attention to something. To do so, I first will repost four passages from the first post.



Matthew 27:57 'When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. 58] This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus....62] Now on the next day, which is the one after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate 63] and said, ''Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.' I know the word Sabbath isn't mentioned here, but this passage is in agreement with the other passages.

Mark 15:42 'When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43] Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.

Luke 23:54 'It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. 55] Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56] Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

John 19:31 'Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


All four gospels show that Jesus was crucified and died on the preparation day before the Sabbath. That's a fixed point.

John 19:14 however, says something a little different.

John 19:14 'Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he (Pilate) said to the Jews, ''Behold your king!''

John did not contradict Matthew, Mark or Luke. And he didn't contradict himself. (John 19:4 contrasted with John 19:31. Sabbath or Passover?)


Now the following is what I want to draw the readers attention to.

In John 19:31, John refers to the day of preparation before the Sabbath. That Sabbath is a special Sabbath because it is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is on Nisan 15, the day after Passover on which day Christ was crucified which was Nisan 14.

Now in John 19:14, John had called it the day of preparation for the Passover. But both John 19:14 and John 19:31 are covering the same day. In John 19:14 Jesus is about to be crucified. It is 6 A.M. Jesus was put on the cross at 9 A.M.

In John 19:31 John calls it the day of preparation for the Sabbath, and Jesus has already died (John 19:33).

Both references are to the same day. John 19:14 is the morning of Nisan 14, and John 19:31 is around 3 P.M. in the afternoon of Nisan 14. The same day. The day of Passover proper. The day of Jesus' crucifixion.

All of the events in John chapter 19 are taking place on the same day. And in that chapter, John has referred to the day of preparation as the day before the Passover, and as the day before the Sabbath. But both references concern the same day. And the day of preparation for the Passover is Nisan 14 in which the Jews had to prepare for the feast of Unleavened Bread which began on Nisan 15 and continued to Nisan 21.

And all four Gospels have stated quite clearly that Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for the Sabbath - The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread - Nisan 15. Jesus was crucified on Nisan 14, the day before.

The Gospel of John is in agreement with the synoptic Gospels that Jesus Christ was crucified on Passover day which was on Nisan 14.

And please refer back to posts #1 and #10.

Last edited by Michael Way; 02-20-2012 at 07:43 PM..
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