Does Life Really Begin at Conception? (birth control, church, dogma, faith)

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

How do you define "personhood"?

Unfortunately for many it’s the visible aspect of one's character, not that which is unseen.
However, there is no separation as many have been taught to believe.

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

How do you define "personhood"?

RESPONSE:

A "person" is a rational individual. Most human beings (from the zygote stage) develop into human beings. However, many are aborted naturally and never become rational human beings.

There must be an individual before it can be rational person. Rational does not mean conscious. And there is no such thing as a mass person; a person must be an individual.

The older term was "ensoulment" when a fetus was thought to receive a rational soul. This came to be synonymous but mistakenly with "quickening" However, one has to be careful with terms. Aristotle and Aquinas recognized a vegatative, an animal, and a rational soul.

REFLECTIONS ON THE MORAL STATUS OF THE PRE-EMBRYO,THOMAS A. SHANNON and ALLAN B. WOLTER, O.F.M. (See Theological Studies, Bioethics 4th Edition (Paulist Press), or Contemporary Problems in Medical Ethics.)

"Given the findings of modern biology, there is no evidence for the presence of a separate ontological individual until tile completion of either restriction or gastrulation, which occurs around three weeks after fertilization. Therefore there is no reasonable basis for arguing that the pre-embryo is morally equivalent to a person or is a person as a basis for prohibiting abortion. That is, there is no biological support for the position that the fertilized egg is from the beginning of the process of fertilization a distinct individual ..."

Note: The authors do not approve of abortion but at an early stage do not consider the preembryo a person. Hence it would not be murder.

Once again, human life begins at conception, but not personhood.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

RESPONSE:

A "person" is a rational individual. Most human beings (from the zygote stage) develop into human beings. However, many are aborted naturally and never become rational human beings.

There must be an individual before it can be rational person. Rational does not mean conscious. And there is no such thing as a mass person; a person must be an individual.<snip.>

What DOES rational mean? And what do you mean by a "mass person"?

(I snipped the last part of your post just so we could focus on defining some of these terms you are using to draw the conclusions you have.)

[mensaguy]

One thing that I have noticed is that people do not have funerals after miscarriages or abortions. There is also no death certificate. I would think that the loss of a human soul would be cause for a funeral.

[CantWait2Leave]

Originally Posted by mensaguy

One thing that I have noticed is that people do not have funerals after miscarriages or abortions. There is also no death certificate. I would think that the loss of a human soul would be cause for a funeral.

That's not true. I know multiple people who have had funerals for their child who miscarried.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by mensaguy

One thing that I have noticed is that people do not have funerals after miscarriages or abortions. There is also no death certificate. I would think that the loss of a human soul would be cause for a funeral.

Well, regarding abortion, most people, I would guess, need to be convinced that what they are killing is not human in order to be at peace with that decision, so of course they would not have a funeral.

As far as miscarriages, you are wrong. I have known many people who held private funeral services for their miscarried/stillborn children.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

There must be an individual before it can be rational person.

"A faculty of one’s own reasoning, compared to that of insanity."

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

What DOES rational mean? And what do you mean by a "mass person"?

(I snipped the last part of your post just so we could focus on defining some of these terms you are using to draw the conclusions you have.)

RESPONSE:

"And there is no such thing as a mass person; a person must be an individual."

A bad choice of words on my part; I should have said multiple potential persons (from the same embryo).

In identical twinning a preembryo (developing ova) may separate into two separate masses of cells that develop into identical twins, but separations into 3, 4 or more distinct cell masses from one fertilized egg is extremely rare.

From the blastocyst stage to the completion of implantation the zygote, blastula, or morula (pre-embryos) are capable of dividing into multiple entities. In a few documented cases these entities have, after division, recombined into one entity again.

Until there is an individual, there cannot be a person.

A rational being is a thinking person, or at least the positive existence of an entity in which rational thought is possible.

CH

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

RESPONSE:

"And there is no such thing as a mass person; a person must be an individual."

A bad choice of words on my part; I should have said multiple potential persons (from the same embryo).

In identical twinning a preembryo (developing ova) may separate into two separate masses of cells that develop into identical twins, but separations into 3, 4 or more distinct cell masses from one fertilized egg is extremely rare.

From the blastocyst stage to the completion of implantation the zygote, blastula, or morula (pre-embryos) are capable of dividing into multiple entities. In a few documented cases these entities have, after division, recombined into one entity again.

Until there is an individual, there cannot be a person.

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I still go back to my original thought in this thread ... that regardless of how many individuals will be produced from a pre-embryo, the point is that once a human egg is fertilized, human life has begun because, barring anything/one inhibiting it, that fertilized egg WILL become a human being.

A rational being is a thinking person, or at least the positive existence of an entity in which rational thought is possible.

CH

I'm still wanting to be sure I'm clear on what you are saying here. Your definition of rational thought would be:

• able to reason: endowed with the ability to reason, as opposed to being governed solely by instinct and appetite

Is that correct? Or would you define it differently?

[ancient warrior]

Pleroo,

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I still go back to my original thought in this thread ... that regardless of how many individuals will be produced from a pre-embryo, the point is that once a human egg is fertilized, human life has begun because, barring anything/one inhibiting it, that fertilized egg WILL become a human being.

RESPONSE:
Perhaps you have overlooked several of my posts. What I have repeatedly said is that human life but not personhood begins at conception.

I spent quite a number of years growing tissue cells in culture. These cells reproduce forming daughter cells. Their nucleus contains the complete genome of the donor, as do cells formed from in vitro fertilization.

If these are from a human donor, they are human life. However, they are not persons.

The characteristics of life are: nutrition, respiration, movement excretion, growth, reporduction, and sensitivity.

These cells human and they are alive. But they are not persons.