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Old 03-02-2012, 09:58 PM
 
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Does anyone know?

Sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking.

What gives?

Sola Fide?
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:39 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,490,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Does anyone know?

Sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking.

What gives?

Sola Fide?
From what I understand is because false teachers use it to justify salvation by works when James was not.

James emphasis was to address the lip service person whose actions and way of life is not becoming of a Christian to the glory of God.

A lip service person is fooling himself by thinking that by "not letting your light shine" that it has no bearings what one really feels about Jesus.

Paul (who taught sola fide) also concured when he wrote:
1 Corinthians 6:9, 19-20
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: ..... You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
That is the point of James, that faith changes the behavior and attitudes towards one another.
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:37 AM
 
9,895 posts, read 1,269,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Does anyone know?

Sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking.

What gives?

Sola Fide?
My guess is because Luther believed in faith alone saves. James tells us faith without works is dead. He also said we are justified by both our faith and our works. So guys like Luther, Calvin and Zwingli didn't much like the book of James.

So you see friend Julian, we can agree on some things. This is why I told you I do not identify with protestants. I believe both faith and works are necessary.

Katie
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:05 AM
 
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Generally the term Works can mean different things and can give incomplete understanding with left unchallenged , See some would say that turning to Jesus and receiving His spirit by Jesus ways is not works , were salvation is a gift of God by His judgment of the cross and blood of Jesus , for those who turn from sin and the dark spirits of this world , which is the judgment of the blood of Jesus and turn to Love the Lord and receive the gift of life ...... Then there is works of the ministries who all Christians are called in one way or another by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, where some will have many gifts of the body of Christ , and others can have hidden gifts were no one knows but the Christian who does his work behind the seen were only God sees, and people with alot of gifts questions .... See the Works of Christ are Holy Spirit , and our works are prayer, our mouth speaking God Words, our legs bringing us to other areas for ministries, our hands helping others by God purpose and lead.....Other works which do not help others are us resisting sin, by our will and through Jesus Prayers of His Blood to develop the fruits of the spirit which we need for our victory.... Still faith is needed to receive or God will not move and Works will be thawed and the works of the flesh will take over and then we Do thing for Jesus , instead of Jesus doing works through us .... As sin and block faith as our confidence will be blocked by Holy spirit , which will require repentance to remove the sin that stops faith , Faith for the gift of salvation is at start a gift of faith from God and could even come with doubt in our minds and the Lord sees our willingness to believe and resist sin ..... Faith works for salvation cannot be called works , as even these works of prayer is for yourself, where the Works of Christ is for others ...
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:45 AM
 
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Luther didn't just dislike it - he hated it heh heh!
He called it "an epistle of straw".

Of course, the Protestants didn't like many of the books that had been in the Bible for over a thousand years (thus, the absence of the deutero-canonical, or apocryphal books in many Protestant Bibles) - so this shouldn't be that surprising. If Luther had been able to get away with it, he probably would have consigned the Epistle of James to the same fire he reserved for those other books.

It's been pointed out earlier, but I think Luther struggled with the use of the word "works" between James and Paul. It appears that they used the word in different ways, but Luther assumed they meant the same thing by "works". This created his dilemna with the book. Paul's idea of "works" referred to "keeping the Law", while James' idea of "works" referred to those "good actions that will naturally result from being a Christian" (as pointed out above, as well). In this aspect, Luther saw a great discrepancy because he was making the bad assumption that the same word, used in Scipture, means the same thing every time it occurs - since the Bible, according to him, as Divinely written. To the contrary, the writers of the indvidual books of the Bible used words in various ways, with different understandings of certain words. It's not always certain that Paul's understanding of a word or concept is the same as that held by a Gospel writer, for example.

That, at least, was one of the problems Luther had with the book. Other problems included its very "Jewishness" - it frequently alluded to traditional Jewish concepts, and those very Deutero-canonical books that Luther was not a fan of, as well as being very reminiscent of "wisdom literature". If the ascription is correct (that it was written by the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, James the brother of Jesus), that would be another reason why Luther (being a Pauline) wold not care for it. The overall letter, even once we take into account the difference in terminology used for "works", is not entirely positive in it's views of some of Paul's teachings. As katiemygirl pointed out - disagreements are possible within Scripture. It's this very polyphony of voices that makes it interesting to many people.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:05 AM
 
889 posts, read 825,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Does anyone know?

Sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking.

What gives?

Sola Fide?
Luther was a pawn of Satan?
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:00 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,339,807 times
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For every passage of the Bible that suggests Sola Fide one can find a passage that support faith plus works. SO this issue will never be solved.

Protestants claim that faith leads to good works to accept The Sermon of The Mount. So the differences in here are moot.

However, some Protestants claim salvation cannot be lost and that is where they run into a major stumbling block.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
For every passage of the Bible that suggests Sola Fide one can find a passage that support faith plus works. SO this issue will never be solved.

Protestants claim that faith leads to good works to accept The Sermon of The Mount. So the differences in here are moot.

However, some Protestants claim salvation cannot be lost and that is where they run into a major stumbling block.
I agree!

Faith is what causes us to repent and be baptized. The scripture says even the devil believes and trembles, but we all know he's not saved.

Anyone can lose their salvation if they don't hold fast the word and slip back into their worldly ways.

Katie
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:34 AM
 
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James was simply making the point that Belief is about the heart not the intellect. He was warning against "intellectual" Christianity. The faith saves. Faith produces obedience of faith (i.e. "Works) as a result of being "Born-again". The faith saved. Not the works. The works made the faith "perfect". No contradiction. It was evidence / testimony that the Spirit of Christ was indeed inside.

But the cults will turn this around into legalism where the believer is now trusting their works not Christs to save them by attempting to justify themselves by "Keeping the Law". This is the "other gospel" condemned in Galatians 1:8 expounded in the entire epistle. That is where the concern is. The issue is not good works. It is Trusting those good Works to save.

Our Trust needs to be in the Lord Jesus Christ to save. He wants us to focus on HIS Works on Calvary.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:53 AM
 
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Luther is quoted as saying:

"Faith is a living, restless thing. It cannot be inoperative.
We are not saved by works; but if there be no works,
there must be something amiss with faith".


Wise words.

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