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Old 03-07-2012, 03:06 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,306,658 times
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It's a question I probably first asked myself when I was 14 or 15. Before that the thought never crossed my mind.

Think of the passion of Christ. I mean what he went through was certainly painful and humiliating, but Him being God, he knew he would come out of it alright, he knew if was going to be Resurrected, so what precisely did God/Jesus sacrifice when Jesus died on the cross?

I googled 'what did god really sacrifice' and found several opinions, if you like.

Traditionally, it's said that God gave his Son - i.e. the life of his son (which is also himself) as a bodily, physical sacrifice for our sins, an atonement that follows the traditions in the OT. But Jesus rose BODILY after 3 days so this wasn't really sacrificed.

There is a belief that Jesus experienced a 'spiritual death'. Some believe he went down to Hades or Hell and suffered there for 3 days although this belief is losing popularity. I believe the Catholic Church still believes this but correct me if I'm wrong.

Some say it was the pain and suffering he went through, prior to and at his death. I can buy this, I suppose, but again in the grand scheme of things it's no skin off his back. I'm sure as a man what he went through wasn't easy, but he was also God.

What about debasing himself by making himself a mere man 'lower than the angels.' Than why play up the sacrificial angle of it? Were the early Christians merely appealing to the Jewish way of thinking, what they thought of the Messiah's destiny?

Personally the sacrificial angle never jived with me, especially as it was drilled into my head as a child and a teen in church. Much guilt was placed on those who 'rejected' Christ's sacrifice.

I also googled 'was Jesus really a sacrifice?' and among others found this.

View topic - Jesus's sacrifice not really much of a sacrifice? • Evidence for God from Science

I kind of agree with some of what is said here, especially the C.S. Lewis quote, but Christianity makes it seem like Jesus' death was such a HUGE deal to God. Is there something the Bible doesn't tell us? Because God/Jesus doesn't seem to actually lose anything by it. Not that this is a reason to reject his offer, of course, but I think appealing to our sense of - guilt for a better word (i.e. he was there for our sin, it should make us feel guilty) doesn't seem right to me.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:38 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,938 posts, read 9,688,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Some say it was the pain and suffering he went through, prior to and at his death. I can buy this, I suppose, but again in the grand scheme of things it's no skin off his back. I'm sure as a man what he went through wasn't easy, but he was also God.
My neighbour suffered beatings, whippings, broken limbs, starvation, sleep deprivation, hours baking in a tin oven, finger nails and toe nails pulled out ....whilst a prisoner of the Japanese in WWII. His torture didn't last for an afternoon. It was almost a daily occurrence for nearly five years....with no' sweet relief' of death. People that think that the Jesus character made a 'sacrifice', should go talk to him.
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,638,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
My neighbour suffered beatings, whippings, broken limbs, starvation, sleep deprivation, hours baking in a tin oven, finger nails and toe nails pulled out ....whilst a prisoner of the Japanese in WWII. His torture didn't last for an afternoon. It was almost a daily occurrence for nearly five years....with no' sweet relief' of death. People that think that the Jesus character made a 'sacrifice', should go talk to him.
Did your neighbor purposely experience that out of love for those that beat him? I think that is the main difference. Jesus wanted to do the will of His Father in Heaven. The will of His Father in Heaven is LOVE.

I don't believe the method of crucifixion was chosen because it was the most painful method. I believe that method was chosen because it would drain the body of Christ of His blood and that the spear in the body finished that draining.
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:42 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,306,658 times
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So it was God sacrificing himself, or one of himselves (one of the persons of the Trinity) or rather just his blood and some of his time, as he didn't really die and never return, to undo something his creations did because they failed the test he made for them, by placing the serpent there to tempt them?
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:56 AM
 
2,757 posts, read 2,177,730 times
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God sacrificed, His Word in giving 'The New Covenant'.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:06 AM
 
351 posts, read 283,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
It's a question I probably first asked myself when I was 14 or 15. Before that the thought never crossed my mind.

Think of the passion of Christ. I mean what he went through was certainly painful and humiliating, but Him being God, he knew he would come out of it alright, he knew if was going to be Resurrected, so what precisely did God/Jesus sacrifice when Jesus died on the cross?

I googled 'what did god really sacrifice' and found several opinions, if you like.

Traditionally, it's said that God gave his Son - i.e. the life of his son (which is also himself) as a bodily, physical sacrifice for our sins, an atonement that follows the traditions in the OT. But Jesus rose BODILY after 3 days so this wasn't really sacrificed.

There is a belief that Jesus experienced a 'spiritual death'. Some believe he went down to Hades or Hell and suffered there for 3 days although this belief is losing popularity. I believe the Catholic Church still believes this but correct me if I'm wrong.






Some say it was the pain and suffering he went through, prior to and at his death. I can buy this, I suppose, but again in the grand scheme of things it's no skin off his back. I'm sure as a man what he went through wasn't easy, but he was also God.

What about debasing himself by making himself a mere man 'lower than the angels.' Than why play up the sacrificial angle of it? Were the early Christians merely appealing to the Jewish way of thinking, what they thought of the Messiah's destiny?

Personally the sacrificial angle never jived with me, especially as it was drilled into my head as a child and a teen in church. Much guilt was placed on those who 'rejected' Christ's sacrifice.

I also googled 'was Jesus really a sacrifice?' and among others found this.

View topic - Jesus's sacrifice not really much of a sacrifice? • Evidence for God from Science

I kind of agree with some of what is said here, especially the C.S. Lewis quote, but Christianity makes it seem like Jesus' death was such a HUGE deal to God. Is there something the Bible doesn't tell us? Because God/Jesus doesn't seem to actually lose anything by it. Not that this is a reason to reject his offer, of course, but I think appealing to our sense of - guilt for a better word (i.e. he was there for our sin, it should make us feel guilty) doesn't seem right to me.
Hi Trimac 20 What did God sacrifice? As I said on another thread, He emptied himself, was born and carried our diseases and was beaten and died for us to prove his love. How else could he do it? No matter how he blessed us it was nothing to him because he created everything. So He said that He would die for us. By living as one of us suffering and dying, then being ressurected he showed us that he loved us and we to would be resurrected.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:19 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,573,726 times
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We can't know the magnitude of a holy, sovereign, unrestrained God becoming a frail, burdened creature sentenced under the law of sin, but the spiritual aspect of what He did made the physical act look like ant hill compared to a mountain.

I know this, that no man could fathom being the creator of those who spat on him, cursed and mocked him, and not strike back with a vengeance. It was without question the greatest display of power ever known.

Agape love we now know.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:28 AM
 
428 posts, read 381,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
We can't know the magnitude of a holy, sovereign, unrestrained God becoming a frail, burdened creature sentenced under the law of sin, but the spiritual aspect of what He did made the physical act look like ant hill compared to a mountain.

I know this, that no man could fathom being the creator of those who spat on him, cursed and mocked him, and not strike back with a vengeance. It was without question the greatest display of power ever known.

Agape love we now know.
Isn't this (the bolded text) akin to the love a parent still has for their disrespectful child? I've known parents whose children treated them like dirt, and the parents endured the disrespect out of love for their children, always ready to welcome them back into their lives with open arms.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:53 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,573,726 times
Reputation: 4463
Quote:
Originally Posted by notyouraveragebear View Post
Isn't this (the bolded text) akin to the love a parent still has for their disrespectful child? I've known parents whose children treated them like dirt, and the parents endured the disrespect out of love for their children, always ready to welcome them back into their lives with open arms.
Apples and oranges, imo.

Both the crowd and the thieves said, "If you are..."; what is the name Moses was told to call Him?

I AM - that's the answer to those who taunted Him, but He held it back for our sake.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:58 AM
 
964 posts, read 718,303 times
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Trimac, what an excellent question. I ponder this often myself as well.

Just thinking out loud here....I've alway been unclear on exactly what Christ meant when He cried out on the cross "My Lord, my Lord, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Somehow, I think this relates to the 'sacrifice' but can't quite articulate it.
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