Can you be Catholic and Pro-Choice? (birth control, punishment, women, churches)

[pauton]

I have been wondering for awhile if you could be a good Catholic, and be pro-choice. My first thought was that both the Pro-Choice and Pro-Life agendas aim at decreasing the number of abortions, Pro-choicers through education and Pro-lifers through law. With this as justification, I concluded you could be a moral Catholic as long you didn't actually support abortion itself. I then thought about it and realized that most of the education was safe sex education, something the Catholic Church opposes (Though most Catholics today do use protection unless they want a kid, but that is neither here nor there). Then I thought about it in the sense that God gave us Free Will, the freedom to chose to sin or not. Is God himself Pro-Choice?! Is it immoral on the pro-lifers part to try and take away our God-given free will? If so, is it more immoral than supporting a woman's right to choose whether to sin or not? Help, I need answers!

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by pauton

I have been wondering for awhile if you could be a good Catholic, and be pro-choice. My first thought was that both the Pro-Choice and Pro-Life agendas aim at decreasing the number of abortions, Pro-choicers through education and Pro-lifers through law. With this as justification, I concluded you could be a moral Catholic as long you didn't actually support abortion itself. I then thought about it and realized that most of the education was safe sex education, something the Catholic Church opposes (Though most Catholics today do use protection unless they want a kid, but that is neither here nor there). Then I thought about it in the sense that God gave us Free Will, the freedom to chose to sin or not. Is God himself Pro-Choice?! Is it immoral on the pro-lifers part to try and take away our God-given free will? If so, is it more immoral than supporting a woman's right to choose whether to sin or not? Help, I need answers!

When I saw the title of your post, I thought the answer would be easy.


But then you added in "GOOD" catholic, and made it way too complicated.

[weatherologist]

pauton,

I converted to Catholicism 4 year ago. I feel (IMHO) that as a Catholic, we should strive to follow all the Catholic teachings. Abortion is not an option that I would personally choose. I also did not use birth control as a means to avoid pregnancy. I was blessed with 4 children in 5 years. However, after my 5th child (I already had one child before my conversion) and at the age of 40, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease that would change my health forever. I chose to have my tubes tied; something that the Catholic Church does not condone. Do I think that this made me a "bad" Catholic, no. I believe that there are some things that have to be a choice made in YOUR heart, no matter what the Catholic Church teaches.

Hope that help in some way.

Also, Oakback, out of curiousity, what was your "easy" answer?

Weather...

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by weatherologist

pauton,

I converted to Catholicism 4 year ago. I feel (IMHO) that as a Catholic, we should strive to follow all the Catholic teachings. Abortion is not an option that I would personally choose. I also did not use birth control as a means to avoid pregnancy. I was blessed with 4 children in 5 years. However, after my 5th child (I already had one child before my conversion) and at the age of 40, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease that would change my health forever. I chose to have my tubes tied; something that the Catholic Church does not condone. Do I think that this made me a "bad" Catholic, no. I believe that there are some things that have to be a choice made in YOUR heart, no matter what the Catholic Church teaches.

Hope that help in some way.

Also, Oakback, out of curiousity, what was your "easy" answer?

Weather...

Thou shalt not kill.

However, I think you and I may be in agreement. I don't think most Catholic lay people or religious would disagree with your choice. You have 5 kids that need you.

[sun]

Is God himself Pro-Choice?!

I really believe that God communicates to people on an individual basis just as he distributes His gifts of Grace to individuals as He sees fit.
Most of us already believe that He upholds principles in an absolute way, yet He also "seems" to be flexible in the ways of justice and forgiveness as only He can be as the ultimate judge that helps to define Him as a just and merciful God.
Doesn't this help to explain the multitude of churches, beliefs & interpretations of God fearing and loving people around the world, all celebrating the same God in their own different ways?
America is pluralistic, and the world is too, with different groups existing, competing and interacting with each other peacefully.
Even the Catholic Church is pluralistic with different wings that interact and vote to elect a Pope in a somewhat democratic fashion. There was a time when the lay people elected the Pope directly, but now Cardinals are appointed to elect the Pope for us. So to think that their isn't a political process at work would be ignoring the reality of the same democratic process that involves electing our own officials.
The Church strives to teach that which is pure and Holy and ideal to the best of their ability. Whether any Church is capable of human failings is not for me to judge, as a human, a Catholic and an American, We're bound to try the best that we can to live up to an ideal and to make the best practical decisions that are applicable in our daily lives.
Our decisons have moral ramifications and real consequences that are judged by God, and which some would argue that punishment is swift and sure and others believe are enforced in the future.
Nevertheless, there is a process whereby God delivers His judgement, and it may not be the same under all circumstances for everyone. But what may be equal is that there is a Pennance that everyone will pay.
Just how human is the fetus when it is aborted? Many believe that a fetus that's a cellular mass that's only a few weeks old isn't nearly as close to being a human as a fetus that's much older. So we all start to enter a gray area of what exactly is being "murdered".
Also, in the most highest of God judgements, is whether the world does indeed have a finite carrying capacity, a point at which the earth becomes overpopulated which can endanger the future survival of the entire human species. Population studies show that mankind's growth has been exponential, that is, the time that it takes for the population of the earth to double has become less and less over the generations. If our world population doubles again too soon before our technology can provide for our minimal needs, then there will be additional suffering and potential death. And if every fertilized human egg survived, the unimaginable amount of future population growth may indeed have catastrophic consquences. Human history has been characterized by rapid population growth followed by wars, famines and epidemics which help to reduce and keep the population growth in check.
So any person might ask God which is worse, aborting a partially developed human fetus or a fully developed human (or more) for each aborted fetus now, at some point in the unknown distant future?
Also, there is the question of the quality vs. the quantity of human life. It's plain to see that in some places that are highly overpopulated, resources neccesary for a healthy and happy lifestyle become scarce. And whether people can live a dignified life certainly does become an issue.
We live in a capitalist society where we all respect the private ownership of property and the means of production, and no one can force society to support those without the means to obtain jobs, especially when jobs aren't being created as fast as the population is growing, due to automation, computerization, robotics, etc...
So if we truley believe that the quality of human life is as important as the quantity of human life, and that God in His infinite wisdom works through individuals to not bear children unless the children are truely wanted, with a firm committment to raise and provide for them by the birth mother and secondarily, by the father & society at large, then it is possible to see that God has ways to communicate to people on an individual basis, and to answer the prayers, and hopes and aspirations that each individual has about their life and reproductive readiness, as it affects not only themselves, but the entire world.
Who else but God can effectively coordinate providing for all the needs in the world while at the same time, helping to maintain all that is in the best interest of each and every individual regarding the quality of life, and the balance of the world's population?
Now that there is the RU 486 "morning after" pill that prevents the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus, the "human life" that is being "murdered" represents even less human suffering since it represents an even smaller and less developed, microscopic human life. So, in the end only God can judge just how immoral or good any Catholic is when they make a decision based on their faith in Him.
I believe that God promotes these options, and the teachings of the Church and the Pope are ideals which everyone should continue to strive for.
But because human reproductive mistakes are bound to happen, the option to support being pro-choice is not one of them but a solution, since IMHO, it's God who opens and closes the door to life.
God has always been there throughout the ages watching the countless generations of women, who did not have the option of not bearing children that they didn't want, often by violent means of war, or through the coercion of family, forced marriage & society, and risking their lives and dying in the process. I see that being pro-choice may be God's way of restoring balance back to women for forcing them into involuntary reproductive servitude for so much of human history. So now He is making it up to them through personal empowerment where before they had none at all. Maybe their prayers have been answered. It's just God's process of give and take, of course all with a gain of salt....
Maybe the alternative to world wars of the past between adults and nations, just may be reproductive wars between the sexual partners of today.
Which of these models represents more physical human suffering to you as a Catholic, or Christian, human being or even....to Christ Himself?

[kaykay]

[quote=pauton;1462755] Is God himself Pro-Choice?!
QUOTE]

We have had numerous threads here on abortion and it is always a hot topic issue to say the least! I, myself, am not catholic so I can't speak to that part of the issue but...regarding whether God himself is pro-choice, I realize this is my opinion, but I think God reserves the right to take life for Himself and Himself alone.

There are times when He has given us the mandate to take life away (another hot topic issue) in the form of capital punishment. But innocent life...no. I don't believe we have ever been given the authority to take it away or support the "choice" of those who do. God has allowed us free will in many areas. That doesn't mean we should support those who choose wrongly or unwisely.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by sun

I really believe that God communicates to people on an individual basis just as he distributes His gifts of Grace to individuals as He sees fit.
Most of us already believe that He upholds principles in an absolute way, yet He also "seems" to be flexible in the ways of justice and forgiveness as only He can be as the ultimate judge that helps to define Him as a just and merciful God.
Doesn't this help to explain the multitude of churches, beliefs & interpretations of God fearing and loving people around the world, all celebrating the same God in their own different ways?
America is pluralistic, and the world is too, with different groups existing, competing and interacting with each other peacefully.
Even the Catholic Church is pluralistic with different wings that interact and vote to elect a Pope in a somewhat democratic fashion. There was a time when the lay people elected the Pope directly, but now Cardinals are appointed to elect the Pope for us. So to think that their isn't a political process at work would be ignoring the reality of the same democratic process that involves electing our own officials.
The Church strives to teach that which is pure and Holy and ideal to the best of their ability. Whether any Church is capable of human failings is not for me to judge, as a human, a Catholic and an American, We're bound to try the best that we can to live up to an ideal and to make the best practical decisions that are applicable in our daily lives.
Our decisons have moral ramifications and real consequences that are judged by God, and which some would argue that punishment is swift and sure and others believe are enforced in the future.
Nevertheless, there is a process whereby God delivers His judgement, and it may not be the same under all circumstances for everyone. But what may be equal is that there is a Pennance that everyone will pay.
Just how human is the fetus when it is aborted? Many believe that a fetus that's a cellular mass that's only a few weeks old isn't nearly as close to being a human as a fetus that's much older. So we all start to enter a gray area of what exactly is being "murdered".
Also, in the most highest of God judgements, is whether the world does indeed have a finite carrying capacity, a point at which the earth becomes overpopulated which can endanger the future survival of the entire human species. Population studies show that mankind's growth has been exponential, that is, the time that it takes for the population of the earth to double has become less and less over the generations. If our world population doubles again too soon before our technology can provide for our minimal needs, then there will be additional suffering and potential death. And if every fertilized human egg survived, the unimaginable amount of future population growth may indeed have catastrophic consquences. Human history has been characterized by rapid population growth followed by wars, famines and epidemics which help to reduce and keep the population growth in check.
So any person might ask God which is worse, aborting a partially developed human fetus or a fully developed human (or more) for each aborted fetus now, at some point in the unknown distant future?
Also, there is the question of the quality vs. the quantity of human life. It's plain to see that in some places that are highly overpopulated, resources neccesary for a healthy and happy lifestyle become scarce. And whether people can live a dignified life certainly does become an issue.
We live in a capitalist society where we all respect the private ownership of property and the means of production, and no one can force society to support those without the means to obtain jobs, especially when jobs aren't being created as fast as the population is growing, due to automation, computerization, robotics, etc...
So if we truley believe that the quality of human life is as important as the quantity of human life, and that God in His infinite wisdom works through individuals to not bear children unless the children are truely wanted, with a firm committment to raise and provide for them by the birth mother and secondarily, by the father & society at large, then it is possible to see that God has ways to communicate to people on an individual basis, and to answer the prayers, and hopes and aspirations that each individual has about their life and reproductive readiness, as it affects not only themselves, but the entire world.
Who else but God can effectively coordinate providing for all the needs in the world while at the same time, helping to maintain all that is in the best interest of each and every individual regarding the quality of life, and the balance of the world's population?
Now that there is the RU 486 "morning after" pill that prevents the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus, the "human life" that is being "murdered" represents even less human suffering since it represents an even smaller and less developed, microscopic human life. So, in the end only God can judge just how immoral or good any Catholic is when they make a decision based on their faith in Him.
I believe that God promotes these options, and the teachings of the Church and the Pope are ideals which everyone should continue to strive for.
But because human reproductive mistakes are bound to happen, the option to support being pro-choice is not one of them but a solution, since IMHO, it's God who opens and closes the door to life.
God has always been there throughout the ages watching the countless generations of women, who did not have the option of not bearing children that they didn't want, often by violent means of war, or through the coercion of family, forced marriage & society, and risking their lives and dying in the process. I see that being pro-choice may be God's way of restoring balance back to women for forcing them into involuntary reproductive servitude for so much of human history. So now He is making it up to them through personal empowerment where before they had none at all. Maybe their prayers have been answered. It's just God's process of give and take, of course all with a gain of salt....
Maybe the alternative to world wars of the past between adults and nations, just may be reproductive wars between the sexual partners of today.
Which of these models represents more physical human suffering to you as a Catholic, or Christian, human being or even....to Christ Himself?

AWESOME post!! Thanks

[Pathwalker]

I look at it this way...

Can you be Catholic, and pro-murder? That's basically what abortion is - taking the life of an unborn child. If someone went up to a pregnant woman and stabbed her in the stomach, piercing and killing the baby within her, that person would be held accountable for murdering that unborn child. But somehow when a woman decides she doesn't want the child, it's no longer considered a child. It's considered a fetus without the ability to feel pain. Why is that?

If you're pro-choice, you're basically stating you think the mother should have the right to determine if her unborn child gets to live or not. Funny, I thought Catholics believed only GOD had that right.

[pauton]

Originally Posted by WCRob

I look at it this way...

Can you be Catholic, and pro-murder? That's basically what abortion is - taking the life of an unborn child. If someone went up to a pregnant woman and stabbed her in the stomach, piercing and killing the baby within her, that person would be held accountable for murdering that unborn child. But somehow when a woman decides she doesn't want the child, it's no longer considered a child. It's considered a fetus without the ability to feel pain. Why is that?

If you're pro-choice, you're basically stating you think the mother should have the right to determine if her unborn child gets to live or not. Funny, I thought Catholics believed only GOD had that right.

Wouldn't the Pro-Choice agenda of using education to prevent abortions be more moral because that way people are actually choosing not to have abortions? You are "saving" people from committing immoral acts rather than forcing them to make the right choice. Pro-Choice is not Pro-Abortion, just about every pro-choice politician has said they are strongly opposed to abortion, and want to educate people to keep it rare. Either way, there will still be abortions, and both agendas aim to make them rare. Lets not kid ourselves, it will happen either way, legally or otherwise. It could be argued that this negates my argument of free-will being taken away because people can choose to have an illegal abortion, but that's why I posted this thread, not to defend my beliefs, but to learn if my beliefs are truly correct.

I am sort of biased because I have always been Pro-Choice, simply because I could care less about other people's lives- I mind my own business. I was very worried when I heard that you had to be Pro-Life to be a good Catholic. I have always been disgusted by those on the right (and left) who tell people how to live their lives. I always thought Jesus wanted me to worry about my morality, and what other people did wasn't really my business unless I wanted to help peacefully educate them in the ways of Christ.

I don't want to change my politics, and I think I would have trouble truly being pro-life, and truly believing in that stance. I have prayed for guidance, do you think the fact that my deep-rooted belief on the issue of abortion rights hasn't changed is a sign that there is nothing wrong with it?

Originally Posted by kaykay

We have had numerous threads here on abortion and it is always a hot topic issue to say the least! I, myself, am not catholic so I can't speak to that part of the issue but...regarding whether God himself is pro-choice, I realize this is my opinion, but I think God reserves the right to take life for Himself and Himself alone.

There are times when He has given us the mandate to take life away (another hot topic issue) in the form of capital punishment. But innocent life...no. I don't believe we have ever been given the authority to take it away or support the "choice" of those who do. God has allowed us free will in many areas. That doesn't mean we should support those who choose wrongly or unwisely.

I don't support the choice of those who do, I support the right to choose.

But you bring up the fact that the issue isn't so much about people making moral decisions, simply protecting human life. But I believe both the Pro-Choice and Pro-Life agendas will both have the same effect on decreasing abortions.

As for the death penalty, I am vehemently opposed to it, just like the Church wants. (Though your church is different, so that is not a criticism of you at all. Some churches do support it in rare cases.) How come there are so many Pro- Death Penalty Catholics, but they draw no where near the criticism of Pro-Choice Catholics. Is it because others in the Christian Right support the death penalty in certain cases, so they don't turn it into a hot button issue like they do abortion? How is support for the death penalty not equally as immoral?

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by pauton

Wouldn't the Pro-Choice agenda of using education to prevent abortions be more moral because that way people are actually choosing not to have abortions? You are "saving" people from committing immoral acts rather than forcing them to make the right choice. Pro-Choice is not Pro-Abortion, just about every pro-choice politician has said they are strongly opposed to abortion, and want to educate people to keep it rare. Either way, there will still be abortions, and both agendas aim to make them rare. Lets not kid ourselves, it will happen either way, legally or otherwise. It could be argued that this negates my argument of free-will being taken away because people can choose to have an illegal abortion, but that's why I posted this thread, not to defend my beliefs, but to learn if my beliefs are truly correct.

I am sort of biased because I have always been Pro-Choice, simply because I could care less about other people's lives- I mind my own business. I was very worried when I heard that you had to be Pro-Life to be a good Catholic. I have always been disgusted by those on the right (and left) who tell people how to live their lives. I always thought Jesus wanted me to worry about my morality, and what other people did wasn't really my business unless I wanted to help peacefully educate them in the ways of Christ.

I don't want to change my politics, and I think I would have trouble truly being pro-life, and truly believing in that stance. I have prayed for guidance, do you think the fact that my deep-rooted belief on the issue of abortion rights hasn't changed is a sign that there is nothing wrong with it?

I stand by what I said - can you be Catholic and pro-murder? It's the same thing as asking if someone can be pro-choice.

Do you think people should have the right to choose whether or not to commit murder? Murder is against the law, but it still happens, so your argument doesn't wash.