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Old 03-19-2012, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 1,467,066 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by redvelvet709 View Post
Yes, and sort of.
Simply put, you get on shaky ground very quickly when you start claiming allegory.
RESPONSE:

Then how about restricting the answers to: real (they happened) vs fictional (they didn't happen)?
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:27 PM
Status: "Enjoying the mountains" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
20,015 posts, read 20,542,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

A "real account" of things to come?

Like in chapter 4, There are four living creatures. The first is a lion, the second an ox, the third has a human face, and the fourth is like an eagle. They have six wings each and are full of eyes"all around and inside"????

And Jesus didn't return the first time during the lifetimes of his generation as he promised, did he?

"real" you say?
The four living beings represent the attributes of God. These creatures were not animals. Like the cherubim, they guard God's throne, lead others in worship and proclaim God's holiness. God's attributes symbolized in the animal like appearance of these four creatures are majesty and power,, the lion, faithfulness the ox, intelligence the human, and sovereignty the eagle. And Jesus did not promise to return during the lifetime of His generation, but He did promise to return and He will.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:46 PM
 
22,865 posts, read 10,759,128 times
Reputation: 3855
Default Is the Book of Revelation just a story?

Ancient,
Anyone who claims to know with certainty ANYTHING about what the book of Revelation is about lacks credibility. I have heard LSD trips and Shroom visions that made more sense. It is part of the Bible so it probably contains inspired truth . . . but everyone's hermeneutic is equally valid and equally speculative. We just don't know. Those who proclaim to know for certain are blowing smoke, IMO.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:18 PM
 
2,265 posts, read 836,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Ancient,
Anyone who claims to know with certainty ANYTHING about what the book of Revelation is about lacks credibility. I have heard LSD trips and Shroom visions that made more sense. It is part of the Bible so it probably contains inspired truth . . . but everyone's hermeneutic is equally valid and equally speculative. We just don't know. Those who proclaim to know for certain are blowing smoke, IMO.

REV 1:3 "Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:34 AM
 
22,865 posts, read 10,759,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
REV 1:3 "Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."
2000+ years is hardly "at hand." Apparently you are one who thinks he knows for certain what is in Revelation. Congratulations . . . but I seriously doubt it.
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:07 AM
 
5,496 posts, read 2,763,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
The last book added to the New Testament is the Book of Revelation.
I see the Book of Revealation often used as a proof-text.

Do fundamentalists consider this (a) to be revealed truth, and (b) are the events described real?
Hi Ancient Warrior. The Book of Revelation is inspired text that is not a story but is to be understood using Bible Typology. Consider for example, that it discusses the TWO Witnesses or the Lampstand of seven candlesticks. These things are metaphorical in a sense but pertain to a real message. Bible Typology is the only way in which one can truly understand the message of Christ. When Bible typology is not used, one will look literally at a failing and corrupt message.

Consider the following on Bible Typology:

A Study of Biblical Typology : ChristianCourier.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typology_(theology)

Biblical typology - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 1,467,066 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
The four living beings represent the attributes of God. These creatures were not animals. Like the cherubim, they guard God's throne, lead others in worship and proclaim God's holiness. God's attributes symbolized in the animal like appearance of these four creatures are majesty and power,, the lion, faithfulness the ox, intelligence the human, and sovereignty the eagle. And Jesus did not promise to return during the lifetime of His generation, but He did promise to return and He will.
RESPONSE:

(1) >>"represent.... symbolized"<< So you accept the allegorical meaning,right?

(2) >>And Jesus did not promise to return during the lifetime of His generation, but He did promise to return and He will.<<

Given the plain meaning of words, Jesus certainly did promise to return within the lifetime of his generation on a number of occassions:

Matt 10:23
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 24:30,34
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven” with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other….Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 26:63
Then the high priest said to him, ‘I put you under oath before the living God, tell us if you are the Messiah,* the Son of God.’ 64Jesus said to him, ‘You have said so. But I tell you, From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.’

Mark 9:1
And he said to them, ‘Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with* power.’

1 Thes 4:15,17
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died…Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever.

But it didn't happen.



Last edited by ancient warrior; 03-20-2012 at 07:55 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:06 AM
 
2,265 posts, read 836,519 times
Reputation: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
2000+ years is hardly "at hand." Apparently you are one who thinks he knows for certain what is in Revelation. Congratulations . . . but I seriously doubt it.
Who said Revelation is all about the very end time as many count it to be only 7 years? Only false teachers say that. Revelation began to open up then and continues to this day with more to come. It was at hand then and at hand today.
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:46 AM
Status: "Enjoying the mountains" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
20,015 posts, read 20,542,215 times
Reputation: 28050
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

(1) >>"represent.... symbolized"<< So you accept the allegorical meaning,right?

(2) >>And Jesus did not promise to return during the lifetime of His generation, but He did promise to return and He will.<<

Given the plain meaning of words, Jesus certainly did promise to return within the lifetime of his generation on a number of occassions:

Matt 10:23
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 24:30,34
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven” with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other….Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 26:63
Then the high priest said to him, ‘I put you under oath before the living God, tell us if you are the Messiah,* the Son of God.’ 64Jesus said to him, ‘You have said so. But I tell you, From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.’

Mark 9:1
And he said to them, ‘Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with* power.’

1 Thes 4:15,17
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died…Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever.

But it didn't happen.


Matt 10:23 Jesus is warning His disciples against premature martyrdom. They were to leave before the persecution go too great.

Matt 24: 30-34 When Jesus said this generation, He was not talking about the generation that is, but the Jewish race shall not pass away before the Lord comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus declared His royalty and His claim to be the Messiah.

Mark 9:1 Jesus was foretelling His transfiguration.

1 Thes 4:15-17 This is the rapture.

Jesus said He will return and He always keeps His promise.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 1,467,066 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Ancient,
Anyone who claims to know with certainty ANYTHING about what the book of Revelation is about lacks credibility. I have heard LSD trips and Shroom visions that made more sense. It is part of the Bible so it probably contains inspired truth . . . but everyone's hermeneutic is equally valid and equally speculative. We just don't know. Those who proclaim to know for certain are blowing smoke, IMO.
RESPONSE:

>>It is part of the Bible so it probably contains inspired truth<<

1. Based on what evidence do you claim that the Bible contains "inspired" truth? Or is just something we have to believe?

2. When was the Book of Revelation added to the Bible?

Canonical history:

"According to Denzinger, Revelation was accepted into the canon at the Council of Carthage of 397 AD according to McDonald & Sanders it was added at the later 419 council Revelation's place in the canon was not guaranteed, however, with doubts raised as far back as the 2nd century about its character, symbolism, and apostolic authorship."(Wikipedia)

Last edited by ancient warrior; 03-20-2012 at 12:59 PM.. Reason: typo
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