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Old 05-15-2012, 08:44 PM
 
3,644 posts, read 1,760,309 times
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[quote=VelcroQueen;24318559]Well, I am sitting down to a jar of southern Iced tea. Wish I could share it with you, Lee9786! Mine's sweet, but sweetened with Xyletol. Good stuff!

I have a question, after I explain. I am not one to keep "goin' at it" if I believe it will not be heard. I am going to read through your quotations below, skipping through them, answering the ones I think most pertinent. If I skip any you wish me to address, would you let me know? It's just that i am a bit tired. Thank you!

Quote:
Why, then, was the Torah ever of any use if it was superceded by another law?
Keeping the Mosaic Law was never intended to be the way of Salvation/Justification, but to point to our need for a Savior.

Galatians 3

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


The Law is Holy, Just, Perfect, etc.. It is exactly why fallen Mankind could not keep it. The Torah is the path of YHWH. The problem is no man will be Justified by "keeping" the Torah as it demands perfection. All are Justified as Abraham - by faith. Faith demonstrates itself through the "obedience of faith".

Quote:
Why did G-d demand that it be obeyed ever if there was a greater existing one?
There wasn't a greater existing one at the time. The Messiah had not yet come. The New Covenant officially came into effect when Jesus Christ provided the once-and-for all sacrifice on that cross. No more Levitical system needed. The animal sacrifices could only cover sin, but Jesus Christ atoned for it.

Everything in the Torah points to Jesus Christ.

Quote:
According to the Scriptures, there was a change in the priesthood, making His Melchidzedik priesthood possible. Several (Maybe only 2? I don't remember.) chapters tell us this.
Where in the Scriptures? Hebrews 7 makes the case that Jesus Christ's priesthood is according to the "earlier" priesthood - aka before Aaron and the Mosaic Law.

Quote:
But Lee, the Temple was still in existence until 70 c.e.!
Yes but God did not condone their system, but pronounced Judgment upon it eliminating it from history.

Luke 19:41-44

King James Version (KJV)

41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


The book of Hebrews is warning Jewish Christians of going back to that system.

Romans 9,10,11 tells us God's program of redemption eventually focuses back on Israel in his plan of redemption. So I'm not condoning replacement theology but pointing to the pronounced Judgement of Israel and it's temple.

Quote:
Deu 30:10 [fn]if you [fn]obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, [fn]if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
Deu 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it [fn]out of reach.
Deu 30:12 "It is not in heaven, [fn]that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
Deu 30:13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, [fn]that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
Deu 30:14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
  • James calls it the "royal Torah" and says that if we don't follow it, we are sinning.http://pics3.city-data.com/forum/
  • Paul went to the leaders to ask how to handle the gossip, and they advised him to prove that he was obedient to Torah.
Where does James call it the "royal Torah"? Where did Paul go to the leaders? etc..

James says the following..

Acts 15

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,


On another note southern sweet tea is good.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Atl
1,699 posts, read 997,987 times
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In regards to post #350. The "royal torah" is not what James is referring to.

James 2:1-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

Beware of Personal Favoritism

2 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.





Law means Torah in the OT.



Law simply means a command, rule, or precept (or a collection of commands) that a person is expected to obey. In the NT there are many different kinds of laws.


Law of Christ Gal 6:2 1 Cor 9:20-21, Law of Faith Rom 3:27, Law of Spirit Rom 8:2, Law of liberty James 1:25: 2:12,, etc. none of there are referring to the law of the 1rst 5 books of the bible.


The sermon on the Mount can be summed up as the commands of Christ as well.
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:04 PM
 
Location: West Coast USA
1,577 posts, read 1,040,302 times
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Note to Velcro: posts 351 & 352. I am too tired tonight, but I want to get back to these.

Come on over, both of you and more, for some southern iced tea and we'll chat instead of write. My husband really likes my tea, in spite of the sweetener, so maybe you will, too. I'll bake some cookies...no, I am a terrible cook. I'll go to the real bakery and buy some. But i will get back here when i can. Thank you, all of you, for not being vindictive, mean arguers but great debaters. Love that.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:18 PM
 
3,043 posts, read 1,302,929 times
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Quote:
Everything in the Torah points to Jesus Christ.
Sorry, I'll try to stop laughing so I can write what I want to say here. Do any of you find it interesting that Jews own something like half the Nobel prizes ever awarded (even though me make up less than 1% of the world's population). We dominate fields like medicine and law that requires TONS of study. We have tens of thousands of living modern sages and rabbis who spend nearly every waking minute of their lives steeped in Torah study, yet not one single Jew on the Earth now or ever has agreed with your statement quoted above? I wonder why we're just "so blind" that we can't see what you can? You say "everything" in the Torah point to Jesus, and we say "nothing" does. Of course it's our book, written in our language given to each generation by our teachers. And you read a translation of a translation of somebody else's book to come to your conclusions. I'm just saying...

Quote:
The New Covenant officially came into effect when Jesus Christ provided the once-and-for all sacrifice on that cross. No more Levitical system needed.
I've never understood how Chrstians come to this conclusion. OK, so he died on a cross. And then soon after a new religion formed that rejected all the mitzvahs found in the Torah. But what's the connection? How did one action cause the next? How did a man-god dying on a cross give permission to a people to stop obeying Hashem's laws? It just seems like a non-sequiter every time I hear a Chrstian say this, and yet I've never met a devout Chrstian who does anytinhg but accept it without so much as a second thought.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:35 PM
 
3,644 posts, read 1,760,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
We have tens of thousands of living modern sages and rabbis who spend nearly every waking minute of their lives steeped in Torah study, yet not one single Jew on the Earth now or ever has agreed with your statement quoted above?
Here's one


Orthodox Rabbi Reveals Name of Messiah "JESUS","Yehoshua" or "Yeshua"(Hebrew) - YouTube

Quote:
I wonder why we're just "so blind" that we can't see what you can?
Rejection of Messiah as he presented himself as the King to Jerusalem. They did not apply Daniel 9:25.

Luke 19:42
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!
but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Romans 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luke 13:34-35
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Hosea 5:15
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Quote:
You say "everything" in the Torah point to Jesus, and we say "nothing" does. Of course it's our book, written in our language given to each generation by our teachers. And you read a translation of a translation of somebody else's book to come to your conclusions. I'm just saying...
Jesus is King of the Jews. We worship a Jewish God.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

The Jews have a huge problem now because the Torah teaches without the shedding of innocent blood there is no remission of sins.

The LORD has not casted off Israel, but they will eventually come to recognize their Messiah - Jesus of Nazareth.

When they do, he comes back.

Acts 1

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Zechariah 14

King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zechariah 12

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:28 PM
 
2,282 posts, read 897,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I rarely pop my head in this forum, but I'm sure seeing some ambivalent feelings towards Jews in here. I wasn't aware that I couldn't be the "brother" of a Chrstian since I'm waiting for a messiah to come who fulfills the criteria needed to be properly declared messiah.
What is your Criteria?
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:47 PM
 
2,282 posts, read 897,637 times
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The Commandment is "six days you shall work" but it does it say which six days?

I'm sure if you were a Jew you would say from sunday to friday or a gentle from monday to saturday. Now, does it really matter seeing that Jesus said that the Sabbath was given to man to rest not that we should be servants of the Sabbath? Now think about it, if the only job I can get is on a saturday or Sunday or perhaps both, don't you thing that the Sabbath/ a day of rest can serve me well if it happens to be another day. I am sure God does too as it is His gift to me, whatever day I rest on.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:48 PM
 
467 posts, read 178,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
The Commandment is "six days you shall work" but it does it say which six days?

I'm sure if you were a Jew you would say from sunday to friday or a gentle from monday to saturday. Now, does it really matter seeing that Jesus said that the Sabbath was given to man to rest not that we should be servants of the Sabbath? Now think about it, if the only job I can get is on a saturday or Sunday or perhaps both, don't you thing that the Sabbath/ a day of rest can serve me well if it happens to be another day. I am sure God does too as it is His gift to me, whatever day I rest on.
YES... I agree.
The Apostles ate the heads of grain as they walked through a field..The Jews accused the Apostles of working on the Sabbath!

Jesus healed a withered hand on the Sabbath.. The Jews got mad because he was working!

Jesus told a man "pick up your mat and walk" it was guess what>> The Sabbath! Jesus did not care a hoot what day it was!!
garya123 Christians follow Jesus' example, Christians are NOT Jews!
Jews worship God of Saturday, Christians worship God on the day of resurrection.. The day men were saved.
Saturday is a day of rest.. Christians are still working, "Pick up your cross and follow" we will rest in Heaven!
Dogknox
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 4,007,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogknox View Post
YES... I agree.
The Apostles ate the heads of grain as they walked through a field..The Jews accused the Apostles of working on the Sabbath!

Jesus healed a withered hand on the Sabbath.. The Jews got mad because he was working!

Jesus told a man "pick up your mat and walk" it was guess what>> The Sabbath! Jesus did not care a hoot what day it was!!
garya123 Christians follow Jesus' example, Christians are NOT Jews!
Jews worship God of Saturday, Christians worship God on the day of resurrection.. The day men were saved.
Saturday is a day of rest.. Christians are still working, "Pick up your cross and follow" we will rest in Heaven!
Dogknox
...you are so wrong.

Allow me to explain something to you...

#1. As Jesus walked through the fields of corn, with his disciples following, ON THE SABBATH, they were hungered...wouldn't you be if you had walked as far as they had...?...all the Lord is showing us here in His word is this: He did not have a problem with feeding the hungry on the Sabbath...they "gleened" very small portions from the stalks of corn...just enough to ease their hunger...they did not "labor"...as in harvesting would entail...they simply were hungry...and it was alright to EAT!

#2. Yes, the UNVBELIEVING Jews, who were so JEALOUS of these (ignorant...stupid..in their opinon) Galileans...and so caught up on hanging onto the Mosaic Law and their LEGALISMS, not believing that Jesus Christs' sacrifice of his life on the cross did away with all their legalisms...as He became THE Sacrifice...as He was THE Messiah !...yea ! they did get mad now didn't they ! Why ?...because someone was simply healed of their infirmities...?...REALLY...?...I mean REALLY !..of course someone can be attended to and healed on the Sabbath..as long as there is no payment for it...and it is done in the Spirit of Christ out of compassion and love for their fellow man !...wouldn't we/they (at the time) have gone to look for that ONE LOST SHEEP ON THE SABBATH ?...WOULD WE...? WOULD YOU...? WOULD JESUS TEACH US THAT THIS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO...? Well...it IS ! the right thing to do...and on the Sabbath...to care for another in their need...what's is the problem here anyway ? WHY WOULD SOMEONE GO LOOK FOR AN ANIMAL ON THE SABBATH...AND NOT A HUMAN BEING FOR GOD'S SAKE ? ? ? ? TELL ME THAT ! ! !

You are WRONG...VERY ! VERY ! wrong ! Jesus cared...oh boy ! did He care !...and He is trying to teach us what is the correct way to conduct ourselves on the Sabbath...HE KEPT THE SABBATH! and ANYONE who plans to be within the family of God...otherwise called "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL"...grafted in...you better believe that you better observe the Ten Commandments! AND NOT FORSAKING THE 4TH ONE...to Remember to keep the seventh day sabbath holy unto God..for He blessed this day...and He hallowed it as a perpetual covenant with those who DO !

May God have mercy on your soul for teaching innocent sheep a false gospel...their blood will be required of you...your hands will be dripping in innocent blood as you stand before Him. God have mercy...but I am afraid for you that He will not.

You have been warned....let it be known.
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:04 PM
 
Location: West Coast USA
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I have read the part of the writing which was said to have condemned Gentiles to death for keeping the Sabbath. Sure, this Oral Torah, said to have been given to Moses but written down in the 2nd century or so, says that Gentiles are worthy of death for observing Sabbath, but nowhere can I find anything that says this was carried out, similar to the fact that there is no evidenve that a young person cursing the parent was stoned or that the woman who did not pass the test for the jealous husband was killed. Furthermore, the Scriptures themselves repeatedly say that the stranger (goy, etc.) who lives among Israelites are liable for Torah's commands.

I recognize that rabbis throughout the ages have reestablished the meanings of Torah and the writings, but they differ with one another, and that is expected. When zealous rabbis want to teach their people that Gentiles were killled for following Torah, however, they haven't a historical, ethical, religious, or humane leg to stand upon.

Further, the people in the Apostolic Scriptures openly followed Torah, esspecially Sabbath. If it were true that Gentiles were killed for following Torah, the people would have been very busy throughout Apostolic times, killing them right and left.

I am not adversarial in my coming to these forums. I quickly tire of adversarial attitudes and posts. But for this truth, I must write what is Truth.
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