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Old 03-27-2012, 02:11 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,782,561 times
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I'm very tired, but I wanted to start this thread while the thoughts are still fresh in my mind. I was watching Investigation Discovery and it was a case about a man on trial for a double murder, one of the victims was his wife's best friend. I missed the first part of the story, but was watching the trial. In most of the trials I've ever watched, the defendant is often stoic and unemotional and seemingly unremorseful. But I could see the pain of shame all over this particular man and great agony and torment of regret were written all over him. And the impact statements made by the victim's family members were very harsh and lacking in any offer of forgiveness. (I'm not saying I'd be any different if someone murdered my kid). But I wept for the man because he was in so much pain of bearing his shame and bearing the wrath and anger of his victims' family members. And so I began to think about the cost of forgiveness. Of course we always hear people say that Jesus paid the cost for our forgiveness and many people receive that message with great joy. But then the scriptures also teach us to "follow Christ", to "pick up our cross", to "love our enemies" and to "forgive those who have sinned against us". There are no particular conditions given that must be met by the offender for us to obey these commands. But in reality, forgiveness is hard. Especially when the sin is terribly grievous such as in the case of someone taking the life of someone you love. In this sense, there is a COST to forgiveness; in other words, to forgive others is going to cost us something. The words FOR GIVE speak of being FOR GIVING.

I was also thinking about that scripture in Hebrews that speaks of how "the blood of Christ" speaks of BETTER things than the blood of Abel. What IS the BLOOD of CHRIST ? Is the blood of Christ spiritual -- running through the BODY of CHRIST so that forgiveness is forever available? Does this make sense to anyone reading it? Do we apply the blood of Christ to those whom we forgive? Do you get beyond the physical blood of the man named Jesus to understand the magnitude of the blood of Christ?

I would welcome other thoughts on forgiveness and the blood of Christ, but I do hope we can keep this thread from turning into a huge argument. If I sound crazy to you, perhaps you can just bypass this thread. I'd like to hear from any who understand what I'm trying to say. Thank you all.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:42 AM
 
Location: New England
32,423 posts, read 21,233,121 times
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Nice post Heartsong.

I believe forgiveness is a choice. That choice of forgiving can be extremely difficult especially when you have been deeply hurt, yet when we forgive we set ourselves free as well as those in need of forgiveness. So forgiveness is as much for our own benefit as well as the one being forgiven.
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:12 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,308,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
I'm very tired, but I wanted to start this thread while the thoughts are still fresh in my mind. I was watching Investigation Discovery and it was a case about a man on trial for a double murder, one of the victims was his wife's best friend. I missed the first part of the story, but was watching the trial. In most of the trials I've ever watched, the defendant is often stoic and unemotional and seemingly unremorseful. But I could see the pain of shame all over this particular man and great agony and torment of regret were written all over him. And the impact statements made by the victim's family members were very harsh and lacking in any offer of forgiveness. (I'm not saying I'd be any different if someone murdered my kid). But I wept for the man because he was in so much pain of bearing his shame and bearing the wrath and anger of his victims' family members. And so I began to think about the cost of forgiveness. Of course we always hear people say that Jesus paid the cost for our forgiveness and many people receive that message with great joy. But then the scriptures also teach us to "follow Christ", to "pick up our cross", to "love our enemies" and to "forgive those who have sinned against us". There are no particular conditions given that must be met by the offender for us to obey these commands. But in reality, forgiveness is hard. Especially when the sin is terribly grievous such as in the case of someone taking the life of someone you love. In this sense, there is a COST to forgiveness; in other words, to forgive others is going to cost us something. The words FOR GIVE speak of being FOR GIVING.

I was also thinking about that scripture in Hebrews that speaks of how "the blood of Christ" speaks of BETTER things than the blood of Abel. What IS the BLOOD of CHRIST ? Is the blood of Christ spiritual -- running through the BODY of CHRIST so that forgiveness is forever available? Does this make sense to anyone reading it? Do we apply the blood of Christ to those whom we forgive? Do you get beyond the physical blood of the man named Jesus to understand the magnitude of the blood of Christ?

I would welcome other thoughts on forgiveness and the blood of Christ, but I do hope we can keep this thread from turning into a huge argument. If I sound crazy to you, perhaps you can just bypass this thread. I'd like to hear from any who understand what I'm trying to say. Thank you all.
This is a really great post, imo. This touches on what it means to manifest Christ to the world. Until Jesus came, we only manifested Adam 1. But now Adam 2 has come, and we have the priviledge of manifesting and knowing this New Reality.

Forgiveness is at the core (heart) of God. I know that we all have the ability to hold resentment and to not forgive. By not forgiving, we hold the other person hostage, and we ourselves are also not free. Sometimes, in really hard moments (like this man's situation you cited), it takes others close to the family to support and encourage the hurt ones to forgive. For the hurt ones, it's easier to be angry and resentful. So others must help them to move towards forgiveness. If they are Christians, this is what they should be doing. Not because I say it, but because Jesus says it, and because in our heart of hearts we know that that is what is right.

There is so little forgiveness being promoted in modern society. It's all about revenge, personal "rights" and all the rest. We live in a "merciless" society, and the church often is just as bad. (There are exceptions, thank God.)

I also liked your reflection of Christ's blood flowing in the body (you and I) today. If we are receiving His Life-blood, we are forgiving. If we are resentful, then His blood isn't reaching us. Resentment= tourniquet.

Beautiful perspective, Heartsong! --And all when you're tired!!


Blessings,
brian
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Old 03-27-2012, 08:19 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,641,650 times
Reputation: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
I'm very tired, but I wanted to start this thread while the thoughts are still fresh in my mind. I was watching Investigation Discovery and it was a case about a man on trial for a double murder, one of the victims was his wife's best friend. I missed the first part of the story, but was watching the trial. In most of the trials I've ever watched, the defendant is often stoic and unemotional and seemingly unremorseful. But I could see the pain of shame all over this particular man and great agony and torment of regret were written all over him. And the impact statements made by the victim's family members were very harsh and lacking in any offer of forgiveness. (I'm not saying I'd be any different if someone murdered my kid). But I wept for the man because he was in so much pain of bearing his shame and bearing the wrath and anger of his victims' family members. And so I began to think about the cost of forgiveness. Of course we always hear people say that Jesus paid the cost for our forgiveness and many people receive that message with great joy. But then the scriptures also teach us to "follow Christ", to "pick up our cross", to "love our enemies" and to "forgive those who have sinned against us". There are no particular conditions given that must be met by the offender for us to obey these commands. But in reality, forgiveness is hard. Especially when the sin is terribly grievous such as in the case of someone taking the life of someone you love. In this sense, there is a COST to forgiveness; in other words, to forgive others is going to cost us something. The words FOR GIVE speak of being FOR GIVING.

I was also thinking about that scripture in Hebrews that speaks of how "the blood of Christ" speaks of BETTER things than the blood of Abel. What IS the BLOOD of CHRIST ? Is the blood of Christ spiritual -- running through the BODY of CHRIST so that forgiveness is forever available? Does this make sense to anyone reading it? Do we apply the blood of Christ to those whom we forgive? Do you get beyond the physical blood of the man named Jesus to understand the magnitude of the blood of Christ?

I would welcome other thoughts on forgiveness and the blood of Christ, but I do hope we can keep this thread from turning into a huge argument. If I sound crazy to you, perhaps you can just bypass this thread. I'd like to hear from any who understand what I'm trying to say. Thank you all.
Yes, nice post. Forgiveness is not easy. Perhaps that is why we need a whole lifetime to learn it?
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,564 posts, read 11,930,351 times
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As Brian touched on, this is what Jesus meant when He said whatsoever things you loose on earth..., life and death in the power of the tongue, etc.

As He is, so are we to be in the earth - that's a pretty high standard, not necessarily of conduct (though it would certainly follow) but of vision and focus concerning the world around us.

Simply put, we can set people free.

"And saviours shall come up on mount Zion, and the kingdom shall be the Lord's."
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:05 PM
 
7,149 posts, read 8,013,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Nice post Heartsong.

I believe forgiveness is a choice. That choice of forgiving can be extremely difficult especially when you have been deeply hurt, yet when we forgive we set ourselves free as well as those in need of forgiveness. So forgiveness is as much for our own benefit as well as the one being forgiven.
some hurts are too great to be forgiven , closeure cannot always be achieved through forgiveness
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,564 posts, read 11,930,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
some hurts are too great to be forgiven , closeure cannot always be achieved through forgiveness
In the natural it would seem so.

"With God, nothing shall be impossible". This pronouncement was given before a 90 year old woman gave birth, then before a girl who scientifically could not get pregnant did.

Did she ever.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
7,548 posts, read 10,129,537 times
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Agreed with above... Forgiveness is a choice that we are EMPOWERED to make because of the forgiveness that has been shown to us thru the cross. We really don't have an option if we want our communion with Christ to remain pure.

My personal definition of forgiveness: Leaving the judgment of the wrongdoer in the hands of God. Releasing the desire for retribution, repayment, amends to us or suffering upon them... releasing them up to God, the true and pure Judge.

Does this automatically make the emotion one feels... pain, hurt, sadness, anger, etc automatically fall away? No, we are still human and these emotions will come. I am still reeling from the pain of an unwanted divorce going on its 10th year now. My children have not lived with me for those ten years. The pain of my family fabric being ripped out from under me is still so unbearable at times that I find it hard to function. Sometimes I have to get on my face before the Lord and hand the EX back to God again and release all the ill will I have. When I think I have done it completely, God in his mercy will peel back another layer off the wound, expose the vile stench that a festering wound will cause, and I have to release it to Him once again.

So, no it isn't easy. But it is the right thing, the righteous thing to do. His loving arms are there to hold and heal. I am a testament that forgiveness is the only way to find the peace that God has for us. The alternative is not an attractive option for the believer.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,782,561 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Agreed with above... Forgiveness is a choice that we are EMPOWERED to make because of the forgiveness that has been shown to us thru the cross. We really don't have an option if we want our communion with Christ to remain pure.

My personal definition of forgiveness: Leaving the judgment of the wrongdoer in the hands of God. Releasing the desire for retribution, repayment, amends to us or suffering upon them... releasing them up to God, the true and pure Judge.

Does this automatically make the emotion one feels... pain, hurt, sadness, anger, etc automatically fall away? No, we are still human and these emotions will come. I am still reeling from the pain of an unwanted divorce going on its 10th year now. My children have not lived with me for those ten years. The pain of my family fabric being ripped out from under me is still so unbearable at times that I find it hard to function. Sometimes I have to get on my face before the Lord and hand the EX back to God again and release all the ill will I have. When I think I have done it completely, God in his mercy will peel back another layer off the wound, expose the vile stench that a festering wound will cause, and I have to release it to Him once again.

So, no it isn't easy. But it is the right thing, the righteous thing to do. His loving arms are there to hold and heal. I am a testament that forgiveness is the only way to find the peace that God has for us. The alternative is not an attractive option for the believer.
A very moving post - thank you for sharing it. It is filled with wisdom and raw honesty. You have obviously been through a lot. I know of many people who are deeply scarred by divorce.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,782,561 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
As Brian touched on, this is what Jesus meant when He said whatsoever things you loose on earth..., life and death in the power of the tongue, etc.

As He is, so are we to be in the earth - that's a pretty high standard, not necessarily of conduct (though it would certainly follow) but of vision and focus concerning the world around us.

Simply put, we can set people free.

"And saviours shall come up on mount Zion, and the kingdom shall be the Lord's."
Thanks, little elmer. You make a great point in how high the mark is for those who will be called the sons of God. It goes way beyond a list of 'do(s) and don'ts'. I'm amazed at the number of people who think they walk in perfect obedience who don't come close to loving their enemies and forgiving those who trespass against them. Many out there who brag about all the things they do and don't do and how righteous they are because of it, all the while despising others and certainly holding ill wishes in their hearts for their perceived enemies.

Christ's Example of Humility - Philippians 2
2 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[b] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Lights in the World

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.
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