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Unread 03-29-2012, 07:48 AM
 
Location: US
8,460 posts, read 2,812,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, I did not miss it. People who never even heard of God are also guilty of unbelief, but due to their ignorance they will be punished with few lashes. Those who knew, and still disobeyed, will be punished with many lashes.
Ok, point out the scripture reference on that particular belief...
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Unread 03-29-2012, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
31,486 posts, read 9,560,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Ok, point out the scripture reference on that particular belief...
Many Bible stories apply to many situations as does this one. It applies to this situation as is does to several others.

“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
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Unread 03-29-2012, 08:01 AM
 
2,636 posts, read 836,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Your belief/unbelief is what determines your guilt/innocence. With faith you are innocent of all your sins, and without it you are guilty of all of them. Do you understand?
Finn,

I have to disagree with you here.

IMHO, it's not what we believe about something that will judge us in the end. It's how we act, what we do, what we teach, what we speak, how we treat others.

Please understand I am not talking about faith itself. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

I am talking about believing certain teachings.

I believe every word in the Bible is inspired/infallible. But there are some concepts that I am not entirely sure about at this point in my life. There are some things I haven't totally and completely studied out for myself. There are many things I have been taught that are another person's interpretation of what the scriptures say. So I cannot emphatically say I believe in this particular doctrine.

I don't like just accepting things because someone said this is how to interpret such and such. I need to know it for myself, in my heart whether it is true or not. I may not live long enough to study each of these things out for myself. Does this mean God will judge me badly because I wasn't able to get a handle on such and such? I don't think so.

Again, I believe with all my heart that God's word is inspired/infallible. What I'm not sure about is the things I've been taught.

So does this make me an unbeliver? Absolutely not! Will I be judged for the things I still don't have complete answers to? No way!

Can I ever disobey a direct command of Jesus Christ and not be judged poorly for it? NO I cannot. Nor can I reject the teachings of the apostles.

I don't know if I am making sense or not here. I'm having a hard time trying to explain just what I mean.

Again, IMHO, we will be judged by our words and deeds, by what we teach and how we treat others. I can't imagine God judging us badly for something we were unsure of.

Katie
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Unread 03-29-2012, 08:02 AM
 
Location: US
8,460 posts, read 2,812,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Many Bible stories apply to many situations as does this one. It applies to this situation as is does to several others.

“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Forgot about that one...I was looking for a more direct verse...
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Unread 03-29-2012, 08:08 AM
 
2,636 posts, read 836,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Your belief/unbelief determines your guilt. If you believe, you are innocent of all your sins, and if you did not believe, you are guilty of all of them.

Simply believing some Bible verse to be true or false does not save you, or make you a "believer". Maybe the word "belief" needs to be defined here. A believer is a saved person, while an unbeliever is an unsaved person.
I think you have missed my point Finn, just as I think you missed Pleroo's point in the OP.

I have repeatedly stated here, and in other threads that I believe the word of God is inspired/infallible.

What I don't believe is some people's interpretation of it. And I will not make the claim that a doctrine is true unless I have thoroughly studied it out for myself. There are still many things I do not know, and probably never will. I don't believe for one minute that I will be judged badly for what I am not sure of.

Like I said, I'm having a difficult time explaining myself, which is unusual for me.

For the record, I do not doubt eternal torment. I just can't teach it to others at this point because I haven't thoroughly studied it out cover to cover. I don't know too many people who have. Most people are just happy to accept what others have to say about it. I'm not!

Katie
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Unread 03-29-2012, 08:09 AM
 
Location: USA
4,396 posts, read 1,479,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It answers your question 100%, but you reject the answer, and that is fine. You are looking for people to support your excuse, but the truth is that there are excuses, and the one you are offering is particularly weak. There are no loopholes, my friend.

Have a nice day
Your continual insistence that I'm looking for some excuse or loophole is disingenuous, Finn. I've never indicated that in any way, and I'm pretty sure you know that. And what you're doing goes hand in hand with the topic of this thread. Some Christians want to assume the worst about other people's motivations, as you seem to want to about mine. It's an unfortunate and unnecessary barrier that you put up.

Last edited by Pleroo; 03-29-2012 at 08:50 AM..
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Unread 03-29-2012, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
8,351 posts, read 3,626,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cledussnow View Post
Absolutely correct.

God will not judge a person for what they do not know. It is a sin ONLY when one KNOWS they are doing wrong and STILL does it.
That statement is absolutely wrong from a bible standpoint. Paul addresses this when he talks about the fact that there was plenty of sin before the law came into effect. The bible also does not give a man a pass out of his ignorance. All will be judged not just some.
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Unread 03-29-2012, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
31,486 posts, read 9,560,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Finn,

I have to disagree with you here.

Katie
Yes, I know you believe in works based salvation, as opposed to faith based. We have already talked about that, and it is off topic anyway.

As for the Bible, I believe it is the word of God, I just don't believe that simply reading that Bible saves you. You can read all your life but not accept Christ as your savior, and you would not be saved.
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Unread 03-29-2012, 08:34 AM
 
14,539 posts, read 4,036,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I'm pulling out something I asked on another thread because I'd like to hear what others have to say regarding the idea that non-Christians (or perhaps even Christians who veer from traditional Christianity) are guilty of the sin of unbelief:

IF someone believes that God exists, that the biblical accounts are all literally true and accurate, and that the traditional Christian understanding of salvation is the correct one and THEN chooses to disregard it ... that, imo, would constitute a "sin of unbelief". But if someone does NOT believe some or all of those things to be true, how can they be guilty for disregarding them?
The Celestial Teapot:

'Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake.

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.

But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.

If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.[1]

Bertrand Russell
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Unread 03-29-2012, 09:04 AM
 
Location: USA
4,396 posts, read 1,479,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post


IMHO, we will not be judged by what we believe, but by what we teach others, by our words, and by our deeds.

For example, if you believe in your heart that certain parts of the Bible are the words of men, I don't think you are guilty of anything. But when you teach it to others, that's a different ballgame. You'd better be absolutely positive that what you teach is the truth. By the truth, I mean, not the truth as you see it, but the truth as is seen in the scriptures.

Again, this is all MHO.

Another example: I have contended on this forum again and again the baptism is necessary for salvation. I base my belief and my teaching on the fact that Jesus commanded it, therefore, it is necessary. I also teach that we are saved by faith. Both of these doctrines are supported by the scriptures, so I am confident that when I go before Jesus on the day of judgement, I can say that I taught what I read in the scriptures.

I will admit that I have not thoroughly studied the doctrine of eternal torment as much as I need to. I haven't looked at every single scripture in both the Old and New Testaments concerning this topic. IMHO, at this point in time, I believe that unbelievers will be tormented eternally, but I am not going to teach that as a fact until I can say it with all confidence. I think it in my mind, and I may tell others this is what I think, but I cannot in all honestly teach it.

I've come to the conclusion that it is best for me to preface things I write on the forum with "IMHO" when I'm not absolutely certain of something.

One more thing.....If a person disregards a direct command of Jesus Christ, then that person does not have Jesus abiding in him. Jesus, Himself, said this. So I can say the same with all confidence.

God Bless,

Katie
Katie, if you teach others what you are "absolutely positive" is truth according to scriptures you are, in fact, simply teaching what you think is truth. Not a single person can prove that what they believe about God is truth, or even that Christian scripture is truth. Within Christendom, everyone thinks that what they believe the bible teaches is truth and is sure that their belief is supported by scripture. So, really, ANYthing that you say about what you believe to be truth should be prefaced with (or should come with the assumption of) IMO... imo .
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