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Old 03-31-2012, 02:50 PM
 
27,393 posts, read 20,767,055 times
Reputation: 24758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawter View Post
I realize in Genesis God said Satan shall bruise Jesus' "heel" by having him suffer and die.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." (Genesis 3:15)

In Matthew it says Jesus would be in the grave exactly three days and three nights
Matthew 12:39-40

And that Jesus would be resurrected from the dead.
Psalm 16:10-11; Psalm 49:15

My first question is:
Did Satan know Jesus was going to die and rise up in exactly 3 days?
No, he doesn't. God says that about the snake and the child of Eve (a/k/a mankind). Has nothing to do with Satan. Satan isn't even mentioned.
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Old 03-31-2012, 04:34 PM
 
2,933 posts, read 1,322,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
No, he doesn't. God says that about the snake and the child of Eve (a/k/a mankind). Has nothing to do with Satan. Satan isn't even mentioned.
Yes, indeed!

James Kugel, writing on how later readers interpreted this story and added quite a bit to what is actually in the text, writes that
The disobedience of Adam and Even thus came to be thought of as the "Original Sin", from which all subsequent sins necessarily followed.

What happend in the Garden of Eden therfore seemd to ancient interpreters to be nothing less than what they called (as the book of Genesis did NOT) the "Fall of Man". Before the disobedience of Adam and Eve, human beings had the potential of living forever in a sinless existence inside the marvelous garden; after the transgression, all of humanity entered a new, fallen state. As for the serpent who caused such a calamity, interpreters concluded that he could not have been just an ordinary snake. Instead, they now identified him with Satan himself. Indeed, the struggle with Satan that began in the garden was to go on outside its walls ever after.

This, in short, is how the story of Adam and Even was understood for centuries. In fact, even today, most people think of it in these same terms, and they are surprised to learn that the phrase "Fall of Man" is not to be found in the Genesis story, nor is there any mention of sinless existence in Eden, nor is the serpent identified in the story as the devil (he is just a talking snake). All these familiar elements are actually the creation of ancient interpreters.
(How To Read The Bible: A Guide to Scripture, Then and Now, p. 51, Free Press, 2007)
Amazing how the reading of Genesis evolved over the centuries into a completely different story, with completely different lessons. The idea that there is a hidden prophecy, as well, is just another interpretation with absolutely no Biblical warrant.

Kugel actually goes into much more detail concerning the evolution of this account in his other work, Traditions of the Bible: A Guide to the Bible as it Was at the Start of the Common Era (pp. 94-144, Harvard, 1998). Tracing how later interpreters changed the Biblical message seems to be his speciality, as a Biblical Scholar. Highly reccomended - both of these works.

Good insight, MightyQueen!

http://perkatworkcomic.com/intheway/comics-archive/2010-08-10-Eden-Bet.gif (broken link)

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Old 03-31-2012, 06:07 PM
 
27,393 posts, read 20,767,055 times
Reputation: 24758
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Yes, indeed!

James Kugel, writing on how later readers interpreted this story and added quite a bit to what is actually in the text, writes that
The disobedience of Adam and Even thus came to be thought of as the "Original Sin", from which all subsequent sins necessarily followed.

What happend in the Garden of Eden therfore seemd to ancient interpreters to be nothing less than what they called (as the book of Genesis did NOT) the "Fall of Man". Before the disobedience of Adam and Eve, human beings had the potential of living forever in a sinless existence inside the marvelous garden; after the transgression, all of humanity entered a new, fallen state. As for the serpent who caused such a calamity, interpreters concluded that he could not have been just an ordinary snake. Instead, they now identified him with Satan himself. Indeed, the struggle with Satan that began in the garden was to go on outside its walls ever after.

This, in short, is how the story of Adam and Even was understood for centuries. In fact, even today, most people think of it in these same terms, and they are surprised to learn that the phrase "Fall of Man" is not to be found in the Genesis story, nor is there any mention of sinless existence in Eden, nor is the serpent identified in the story as the devil (he is just a talking snake). All these familiar elements are actually the creation of ancient interpreters.
(How To Read The Bible: A Guide to Scripture, Then and Now, p. 51, Free Press, 2007)
Amazing how the reading of Genesis evolved over the centuries into a completely different story, with completely different lessons. The idea that there is a hidden prophecy, as well, is just another interpretation with absolutely no Biblical warrant.

Kugel actually goes into much more detail concerning the evolution of this account in his other work, Traditions of the Bible: A Guide to the Bible as it Was at the Start of the Common Era (pp. 94-144, Harvard, 1998). Tracing how later interpreters changed the Biblical message seems to be his speciality, as a Biblical Scholar. Highly reccomended - both of these works.

Good insight, MightyQueen!
Ah, got that from long discussions with Jewish women on an interreligious forum in another place a few years ago. I remember saying, "so wait...in the original story, this is just about a talking snake and why snakes and people don't get along?" And one of them said, "Yeah, pretty much."

Just like here, there were the usual name-callers, verse-quoters, and "I'm righters", but just like here, I was able to find a few people to have serious and interesting discussions with.

Thanks for the book recommendations.

You know, I can even see from a Christian point of view a discussion happening about metaphorical or mystical layers of meanings in this and other stories. But they should be kept within a study venue and not turned into doctrine, and the original story and the original concept of the story should not be abandoned for the new interpretation. That just seems wrong.
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Old 03-31-2012, 06:15 PM
 
2,933 posts, read 1,322,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Ah, got that from long discussions with Jewish women on an interreligious forum in another place a few years ago. I remember saying, "so wait...in the original story, this is just about a talking snake and why snakes and people don't get along?" And one of them said, "Yeah, pretty much."

Just like here, there were the usual name-callers, verse-quoters, and "I'm righters", but just like here, I was able to find a few people to have serious and interesting discussions with.

Thanks for the book recommendations.

No problems, and likewise! A classic about Genesis and it's etiologies and folk-loristic motifs is Hermann Gunkel's Genesis Translation and Commentary. The Introduction was printed separately as The Legends of Genesis, and is in English and available for free on Google Books or other places. Highly reccomended.
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Old 03-31-2012, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Kansas City
480 posts, read 451,997 times
Reputation: 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
No, he doesn't. God says that about the snake and the child of Eve (a/k/a mankind). Has nothing to do with Satan. Satan isn't even mentioned.
Okay. Do you all agree with Mightyqueen that Satan, apart from Scripture did not know Jesus was going to die and rise again in 3 days?

I personally don't agree and I'll tell you why, but we'll get into that in a minute.
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:57 PM
 
463 posts, read 189,935 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawter View Post
I realize in Genesis God said Satan shall bruise Jesus' "heel" by having him suffer and die.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." (Genesis 3:15)

In Matthew it says Jesus would be in the grave exactly three days and three nights
Matthew 12:39-40

And that Jesus would be resurrected from the dead.
Psalm 16:10-11; Psalm 49:15

My first question is:
Did Satan know Jesus was going to die and rise up in exactly 3 days?
Those interpretations are flawed. They are not only about Jesus but about the servant of the Lord, all of His servants, the son of man. Satan does not know the plans of the Lord because He is a liar, and those who do not act in truth cannot see the light. The Lord is the light of those who revere Him and give Him glory."The Lord redeems the lives of His servants, no one who takes refuge in Him incurs guilt."
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:08 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 888,063 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princely View Post
Those interpretations are flawed. They are not only about Jesus but about the servant of the Lord, all of His servants, the son of man. Satan does not know the plans of the Lord because He is a liar, and those who do not act in truth cannot see the light. The Lord is the light of those who revere Him and give Him glory."The Lord redeems the lives of His servants, no one who takes refuge in Him incurs guilt."

You need to go back and read Gen. 3:14-16. [and NO it was not a "talking snake." See Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


God told Adam, Eve, and the devil what would happen to them due to what had taken place in the garden.

Satan heard God say Eve's seed [Messiah] would bruise his head.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:14 PM
 
2,933 posts, read 1,322,224 times
Reputation: 590
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
You need to go back and read Gen. 3:14-16. [and NO it was not a "talking snake." See Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


God told Adam, Eve, and the devil what would happen to them due to what had taken place in the garden.

Satan heard God say Eve's seed [Messiah] would bruise his head.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Revelations used lots of metaphorical and allegorical imagery - it would be bad exegesis to start applying it literally to characters in Genesis. That explanation is not what John of Patmos was trying to say. If I call someone the "son of Cain" - I don't mean he's literally the "son of Cain". No, I mean he's someone who is willing to/ or has killed his own brother.
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:21 PM
 
463 posts, read 189,935 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
You need to go back and read Gen. 3:14-16. [and NO it was not a "talking snake." See Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


God told Adam, Eve, and the devil what would happen to them due to what had taken place in the garden.

Satan heard God say Eve's seed [Messiah] would bruise his head.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
I agree with the verses just not the interpretations.

Like the Lord says "The Lords power will be known to His servants but to His enemies His wrath."

"If you are faithful you will see the glory of God".

"The Lord God does nothing without revealing His plans to His servants the prophets."

"No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born from above.
No one can see the reign of God unless they are born of water and spirit".
Flesh makes flesh, spirit makes spirit."
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Old 04-01-2012, 04:33 AM
 
Location: Kansas City
480 posts, read 451,997 times
Reputation: 359
Okay, here goes...
Assuming you're a bit familiar with Greek Mythology, and if not you can learn about it by searching...

"OK, a little quiz. Who am I talking about?

He was born to a virgin by immaculate conception through the intervention of a holy spirit. This fulfilled an ancient prophecy. When he was born the ruling tyrant wanted to kill him. His parents had to flee to safety. All male children under the age of two were slain by the ruler as he sought to kill the child. Angels and shepherds were at his birth and he was given gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. He was worshipped as the saviour of men and led a moral and humble life. He performed miracles which included healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, casting out devils and raising the dead. He was put to death on the cross between two thieves. He rose from the dead to ascend to heaven.

Sounds exactly like Jesus doesn’t it? But it’s not. That is how they described the Eastern saviour god known as Virishna 1,200 years before Jesus is claimed to have been born. If you want a saviour god who died so our sins could be forgiven, take your pick from the ancient world because there are a stream of them."


Evidence for Jesus and Parallel Pagan "Crucified Saviors" Examined

After searching the internet I find that some people say this paralleling is simply not true; that that is not what Greek Mythology says.

I, however, for now, will assume it's true; that Greek Mythology does say these things.

Many, if not all gods in Greek Mythology paralleled Jesus Christ.

Now, if Mythology states these gods, these saviors were known 1200 years BC...Who put these parallels in the hearts of these men?

Was it Satan? I'm thinking it had to be him. Who else could mastermind this brillant plan in an attempt to thwart the life of Jesus...to put this lie into the hearts of men...closely, so closely parallel to the life and death of Jesus Christ?

These Greek gods were said to have done things Jesus did (miracles, die, rise on the 3rd day, etc.) and they did it before He was born so that when Jesus was actually born, crucified, buried, rose up from the dead, people would think....Oh, another Horus, another Thor, just another Adonis, just another prophet, just another good man, etc.

“Was Satan unable to comprehend the unfolding of the plan of redemption and the defeat of his kingdom? Was Satan aware of this plan, but unable to control the wicked works of his kingdom of anarchy? It seems Satan's hand was heavily involved in his own demise.

1 Cor 2v7-8, 'But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for glory,
vs8, which none of the rulers of this age knew, for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Satan's role in the crucifixion

Why DO some people today think Jesus was just another prophet?
If this idea is not from Satan, who is it from?
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